Enforcement puzzle

[mbyron]

Ohio's director of officiating development for football visited our association meeting last night and posed this question to the group:

A snaps the ball with 6 men on the line. During the run, A1 fumbles. B1 recovers the ball and starts running. During B1's run, B2 commits an illegal block in the back. Near the goal line, B1 fumbles the ball, which bounces into and then out of the back of the end zone.

What happens next?

[cmathews]

B can decline A's foul, and accept the penalty for the block in the back which would be enforced from the 20 as the play resulted in a touchback, or we B can take the offsetting fouls. So we need to know where the ball was snapped from as well as down and distance. My gut tells me that B would most likely want to take the offsetting fouls rather than give the ball back to A first and 10 at the 30...

[Welpe]

Answering for NCAA but I think NFHS would be the same:

B was last in possession during the down so they have the option of accepting the penalty and the penalties will offset or they can decline the penalty for A's illegal formation foul and (temporarily) keep the ball.

A then has the option of accepting or declining the penalty for B's illegal block in the back. If they accept, the penalty will be enforced under 3 and 1 (all but one). If A declines, the result of the play is a touchback.

[wisref2]

Result of the play is a touchback. If B accepts the penalty, it creates a double foul - replay the down (by rule, A has to accept the penalty against B).

There is a chance that B would decline - and this option has to be explained. Let's say A had the ball at B's 5 yard line. As B, I would decline A's foul. The ball is then placed at the 20 (A's ball after touchback), and the BIB foul moves it to the 30. First and 10 on A's 30 is a whole bunch better than repeating the down at B's 5.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by wisref2

Result of the play is a touchback. If B accepts the penalty, it creates a double foul - replay the down (by rule, A has to accept the penalty against B).

There is a chance that B would decline - and this option has to be explained. Let's say A had the ball at B's 5 yard line. As B, I would decline A's foul. The ball is then placed at the 20 (A's ball after touchback), and the BIB foul moves it to the 30. First and 10 on A's 30 is a whole bunch better than repeating the down at B's 5.

Nope ... if A then accepts B's foul, it's B's ball 10 yards behind the spot of the foul - not 10 yards from the end of the play. A must decline the penalty to get the ball back.

[KS_Blue]

There is more than likely no way that B is going to keep the ball. B has the first option to decline or accept the illegal formation penalty. If they accept there will be a double foul and replay the down. If B declines the penalty then A has the choice to accept or decline B's foul. If they accept, which they probably wont, it is B's ball 10 yds behind the spot of foul. If they accept, then it is their ball 1/10 from A20.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Ohio's director of officiating development for football visited our association meeting last night and posed this question to the group:

A snaps the ball with 6 men on the line. During the run, A1 fumbles. B1 recovers the ball and starts running. During B1's run, B2 commits an illegal block in the back. Near the goal line, B1 fumbles the ball, which bounces into and then out of the back of the end zone.

What happens next?

I'll try this without reading any previous replies, or consulting rulebook/casebook... let's see how I do.

Stuff to care about, in order of appearance:
Illegal formation on A
Fumble by A
Possession gained by B
Foul by B (BIB)
Fumble by B
Ball becomes dead behind A's goal line.

1) If B accepts A's foul:
1a) If A accepts B's foul, the down will be replayed at the original LOS.
1b) If A declines B's foul, enforce the A's illegal formation penalty and replay the down.


2) If B declines A's foul:
2a) If A accepts B's foul, enforce 10 yards from the spot of the foul, 1st and 10 for B.
2b) If A declines B's foul, touchback for A.


So it'll probably end up being either 1a, 1b, or 2b, depending on where the original LOS was.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Ohio's director of officiating development for football visited our association meeting last night and posed this question to the group:

A snaps the ball with 6 men on the line. During the run, A1 fumbles. B1 recovers the ball and starts running. During B1's run, B2 commits an illegal block in the back. Near the goal line, B1 fumbles the ball, which bounces into and then out of the back of the end zone.

What happens next?

CANADIAN RULING:

B will decline A's illegal formation, and A will accept B's illegal block. It will be B's 1D, 10 yards back from where the ball was when the IB occurred.

[BoBo]

First off in the original play I am assuming when B fumbles it is going into team A end zone.

I think we can all agree if B accepts the penalty for IF and A accepts the penalty BIB we will be replaying the down.

If team B declines the penalty for IF, by rule the have recovered the ball with "clean hands". The penalty for BIB occurs behind the runner who is going into the endzone to score. If he were to score a TD or tackled before scoring we would enforce the penalty from the penalty flag aka spot of the foul. 10 yards 1st and 10 team B

BUT

The catch here is the fumble. Lets say there is no flag and the team B player going into the endzone of team A fumbles the football into and out of the endzone we have a touchback rewarded to team A.

SO

Team A would in the play have to decline the penalty of Team Bs BIB to take the results of the play.

With that all being said and as I have probably confused you and myself-

1. If team B accepts the penalty of IF on team A, then team A will accept the penalty on team B BIB and replay the down.

2. If team B declines the penalty of IF on team A, then team could decline the penalty of BIB on team B and should get the ball 1st and 10 on the 20 yard line.



sidenote if for some reason Team B declines, and team A accepts BIB then team B would get the ball 10 yards from the spot of the foul for BIB and 1st and 10.

[wisref2]

Spot foul is correct.

So - end the mystery. What did your director say?

We're using this in our next meeting - just to spur a fun discussion.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by wisref2

Spot foul is correct.

So - end the mystery. What did your director say?

We're using this in our next meeting - just to spur a fun discussion.

Oh, it's a cliff hanger. We'll be talking about it at our next meeting, too.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Oh, it's a cliff hanger. We'll be talking about it at our next meeting, too.

Was the fumble from B into A's or B's endzone?

-Josh

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Was the fumble from B into A's or B's endzone?

-Josh

B fumbles into A's end zone.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by BoBo

First off in the original play I am assuming when B fumbles it is going into team A end zone.

I think we can all agree if B accepts the penalty for IF and A accepts the penalty BIB we will be replaying the down.

If team B declines the penalty for IF, by rule the have recovered the ball with "clean hands". The penalty for BIB occurs behind the runner who is going into the endzone to score. If he were to score a TD or tackled before scoring we would enforce the penalty from the penalty flag aka spot of the foul. 10 yards 1st and 10 team B

BUT

The catch here is the fumble. Lets say there is no flag and the team B player going into the endzone of team A fumbles the football into and out of the endzone we have a touchback rewarded to team A.

SO

Team A would in the play have to decline the penalty of Team Bs BIB to take the results of the play.

With that all being said and as I have probably confused you and myself-

1. If team B accepts the penalty of IF on team A, then team A will accept the penalty on team B BIB and replay the down.

2. If team B declines the penalty of IF on team A, then team could decline the penalty of BIB on team B and should get the ball 1st and 10 on the 20 yard line.



sidenote if for some reason Team B declines, and team A accepts BIB then team B would get the ball 10 yards from the spot of the foul for BIB and 1st and 10.

I agree with BoBo. If team B wanted to retain possession, they should not have fumbled the ball or they should have recovered it. Either way A is the next to snap the ball. B does get to decide where they are going to do it.

[jdmara]

I'm a new football official so be easy on me

I am going to re-hash the OP with arbitrary yardlines to keep everything straight in my mind.

A’s, 2 and 10 from B’s 20. Team A snaps the ball with 6 men on the line. During the run, A1 fumbles. B1 recovers the ball and starts running. During B1's run, B2 commits an illegal block in the back (spot foul at A’s 35). Near A’s goal line, B1 fumbles the ball, which bounces into and then out of the back of A’s end zone.

1.) B’s was the last to possess the ball before it when into A’s goal and subsequently OOB. No other force caused the ball into the endzone and OOB therefore it is a touchback. Team A will have possession of the ball after the touchback (if there were no penalties).

2.) Since Team A would put the ball in play next, they must decide on their penalty first (IBB).

a. If Team A accepts IBB

i. and Team B accepts the IF, it would be a double foul and the down would be replayed (A’s ball, 2nd and 10 from B’s 20)

ii. and Team B declines the IF, it would be Team B’s ball 10 yards from the spot of the IBB (B’s ball, 1st and 10 at A’s 45)

b. If Team A declines the IBB

i. and Team B accepts the IF, it would be Team A's ball 5 yards from the previous spot and replay the down (A's ball, 2nd and 15 from B's 25)

ii. and Team B declines the IF, it would be a touchback (A’s ball, 1st and 10 from A’s 20)

Ok, now murder my thinking… In basketball, I would have called a travel before the crash and no foul