Here's a doozy for ya

[OakTree]

Texas 6man football sub varsity (NCAA rules other than 6man differences).

On a PAT, Team B player gets to the tee/ball before the kicker from Team A and proceeds to boot the ball 30 yards down the field in the opposite direction for no apparent reason. In the ensuing melee, coaches from Team B see the tee fly up and get a glimpse of it, and suggest that the tee used by Team A - which is actually two tees taped together, is illegal. Note that the tees are not stacked, they are taped together side by side, thus they don't technically violate the specs listed in the manual (that I can see, anyway).

What the heck is the result of this play?

[JugglingReferee]

CANADIAN RULING:

Illegal Equipment. Penalty on ensuing kick-off.

[jchamp]

Originally Posted by OakTree

Texas 6man football sub varsity (NCAA rules other than 6man differences).

On a PAT, Team B player gets to the tee/ball before the kicker from Team A and proceeds to boot the ball 30 yards down the field in the opposite direction for no apparent reason. In the ensuing melee, coaches from Team B see the tee fly up and get a glimpse of it, and suggest that the tee used by Team A - which is actually two tees taped together, is illegal. Note that the tees are not stacked, they are taped together side by side, thus they don't technically violate the specs listed in the manual (that I can see, anyway).

What the heck is the result of this play?

In NFHS, 1-3-4 simply has the requirements for the tee that it be "of pliable material" and that it elevates the lowest point of the ball no more than two inches above the ground. No mention is made about altering a commercially manufactured kicking tee to suit your needs, or about tees that are not permitted. I don't have the college rules, but I would imagine there is a difference--the devil is in the details.

[Robert Goodman]

OK, but what about the illegal (in NCAA) place kick by B? Or is it legal because it was not preceded by a CoP and the ball was still behind A's line of scrimmage? Could it have scored a point for B? Or, since it's 6-man, 2 points?

[Welpe]

Wow what a weird play.

The only thing in the UIL exceptions about the tee is that it can't elevate the ball more than 2" above the ground.

This is also illegally kick the ball by Team B and no, it can't score any points.

[JasonTX]

Illegal kick. The ball remains live because Team A has not kicked it. Team B kicking it does not cause the ball to be dead. If B gains possession of the ball it becomes dead. The holder is the last player from Team A in possession and when the ball is kicked by team B, only the holder can recover to keep the ball live for a possible advance by pass or maybe exchange it with a teammate. If a teammate recovers it, the ball becomes dead (4th down fumble rules). The penalty for the illegal kick is enforced at the previous spot and the Try repeated.

As for the size of the tee. Techincally they could bring a 12 ft. 2 x 4 out there as long as it don't violate the maximum height requirements. There are no other dimensional requirements other than the height.

[OakTree]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Illegal kick. The ball remains live because Team A has not kicked it. Team B kicking it does not cause the ball to be dead. If B gains possession of the ball it becomes dead. The holder is the last player from Team A in possession and when the ball is kicked by team B, only the holder can recover to keep the ball live for a possible advance by pass or maybe exchange it with a teammate. If a teammate recovers it, the ball becomes dead (4th down fumble rules). The penalty for the illegal kick is enforced at the previous spot and the Try repeated.

As for the size of the tee. Techincally they could bring a 12 ft. 2 x 4 out there as long as it don't violate the maximum height requirements. There are no other dimensional requirements other than the height.

I actually used the same example you did about the 1"x4" that didn't violate height. It seems common sense to me that that wouldn't be allowed, but as you mentioned, only the height is referenced specifically in the manual, so I'm not sure what I'd say to the coach who tried to use it.

What about this stipulation earlier in the manual, could it be applied?
Field Areas
ARTICLE 9. a. No material or device shall be used to improve or degrade the
playing surface or other conditions and give one player or team an advantage
(Exceptions: Rules 2-16-4-b and c).

OR

Illegal Equipment
ARTICLE 7. Illegal equipment includes the following (See Appendix E for
additional details):
f. Any equipment that could provide an unfair advantage to any player.

[Robert Goodman]

You wimps these days with your lumber...we used to kick off a brick, and we liked it!

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by OakTree

I actually used the same example you did about the 1"x4" that didn't violate height. It seems common sense to me that that wouldn't be allowed, but as you mentioned, only the height is referenced specifically in the manual, so I'm not sure what I'd say to the coach who tried to use it.

What about this stipulation earlier in the manual, could it be applied?
Field Areas
ARTICLE 9. a. No material or device shall be used to improve or degrade the
playing surface or other conditions and give one player or team an advantage
(Exceptions: Rules 2-16-4-b and c).

OR

Illegal Equipment
ARTICLE 7. Illegal equipment includes the following (See Appendix E for
additional details):
f. Any equipment that could provide an unfair advantage to any player.

It's not degrading the surface. That would be if he brought a device out there to dig some of the grass off the field. If he brings out a garden tool tool to "fix" the field to place his "1x4" on then we have issues.

The equipment rule is not there either. He's not gaining any unfair advantage. That would be more like using a tub of lard on his jersey or putting stickem on his gloves. Nothing to do with a kicking tee.

We have bigger fish to fry than worrying about the width of a tee.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by OakTree

I actually used the same example you did about the 1"x4" that didn't violate height. It seems common sense to me that that wouldn't be allowed, but as you mentioned, only the height is referenced specifically in the manual, so I'm not sure what I'd say to the coach who tried to use it.

What about this stipulation earlier in the manual, could it be applied?
Field Areas
ARTICLE 9. a. No material or device shall be used to improve or degrade the
playing surface or other conditions and give one player or team an advantage
(Exceptions: Rules 2-16-4-b and c).

OR

Illegal Equipment
ARTICLE 7. Illegal equipment includes the following (See Appendix E for
additional details):
f. Any equipment that could provide an unfair advantage to any player.

Whatever this tee looks like, it could not possibly have been used to improve or degrade the playing surface ... so let's ignore that, as it's silly.

To invoke 7f, you have to define "unfair" ... and since the definition of tee tells you what is "fair" - and this concoction fits within that definition... there is no reason to rule the "device" as creating an unfair advantage. Tee is legal. The kick is not. Most likely we're having a rekick at half the distance.

[Robert Goodman]

Wait a minute, you saying that if I really used a brick as a kicking tee there'd be nothing you could stop that with? Is Fed's the only code that specifies pliable material? Nothing in NCAA about having dangerous items on the field? What if I wanted to kick off a bear trap?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Wait a minute, you saying that if I really used a brick as a kicking tee there'd be nothing you could stop that with? Is Fed's the only code that specifies pliable material? Nothing in NCAA about having dangerous items on the field? What if I wanted to kick off a bear trap?

Not permissible. Safety always comes first and those pieces of equipment are unsafe.

[OakTree]

You don't think that the holder pegging the ball down on a 6"x3" surface is easier to do than if he were trying to peg it down on a 3"x3" surface? It seems inherent to me that it provides an advantage, otherwise why would the guy be doing it?

[OakTree]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

We have bigger fish to fry than worrying about the width of a tee.

I'm with you on that one. The last thing I wanted to be talking about in the 4th quarter of a tight game. I think if I had been the white hat I would have told him to buzz off. But - it did get me thinking. Appreciate all the replies here.

[Texas Aggie]

This actually isn't an illegal kick, but illegally kicking the ball. In the NCAA code, there is a difference. And the ball isn't dead (11 man; under 6 man exceptions the ball is dead IMMEDIATELY since Team A can not score) until the end of the play, not necessarily Team B possession, because it isn't a "kick" but rather, a fumble and loose ball because the holder lost possession of it. Its a 10 yard basic spot foul, but you would enforce from the previous spot. In this case, it would be half the distance.

As Jason said, the dimensions of the tee is irrelevant. Unless the officials perceive the device as being dangerous, and it isn't over 2" (Texas UIL; NCAA by rule its prohibited except on kickoff), we're OK.

I have actually seen this -- in an 11 man jr. high game about 4 years ago. Defensive lineman broke through and got to the held ball before the kicker did and kicked it.