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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 04:28pm
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Quote:
Oops, see NFHS rule 5-3-1. You see I am learning! ___________________________ But I'm only a youth official so what do I know. Derock [Edited by Derock1986 on Jan 20th, 2003 at 04:56 PM] 
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 04:36pm
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Derock,
This situation does not rely on common sense. It ONLY relies on the CORRECT understanding of the rules. You, by sheer luck, come up with the right enforcement. 5 years ago the rules were different. It would have been 1st and 25. Was it fair? Did it make "common sense"? Probably not, but that was the rule. Once again you want to officiate ( and I use that term loosely) by the seat of your pants with total disregard for the written rules.
__________________
Steve
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 04:36pm
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Maybe you can't do this under Fed rules but under NCAA rules it is easy. You know where the succeeding spot is (i.e. where the ball is about to be snapped from). Step off the yardage from there and THEN set the chains. It will still be 1st and 10 though.
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 05:31pm
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5-1-2-a. On 1-2-3 down, you do not award a new series of downs until considering the effects of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul. 5-1-2-b. On 4th down, you do not award a new series of downs until considering the effects of any act during the down, other than a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul. 5-3-1. When a new series of downs is awarded, the penalties for all fouls (including nonplayer and unsportsmanlike) committed prior to the ready-for-play signal shall be administered before the line to gain is established. _____________________________________ But I'm only a youth official so what do I know. Derock
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 05:40pm
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Re: NF 5-1-2
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__________________________________ But I'm only a youth official so what do I know. Derock
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 05:45pm
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_____________________________ But I'm only a youth official so what do I know. Derock
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 05:54pm
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Rule 5-1-2 talks about the end of the down and 5-3-1 specifies an award of first down occurs only after all penalties have been enforced. The key phrase from Fundamental X.4 is all dead ball fouls are enforced from the succeeding spot. It would be confusing to set the chains then have an unsportsmanlike or dead ball foul occur before the ready. But by rule they should be set a second time. Of course, the average coach and most spectators would not understand and just maybe the "common sense" official walks off 15 yards for a first and 25. Unfortunately, the "common sense" official looks good while those who go by the rules are busy explaining to the coach why he did what he did. But, how often would you get an unsportsmanlike or dead ball personal after the chains are set and before the ready?
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 06:21pm
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___________________________ But I'm only a youth official so what do I know. Derock
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 07:40pm
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Derock,
I thought you finally got it. You quoted the rules so well.(Almost as well as I did in my previous post). But, alas, you still don't. It's first and ten for A. The dead ball foul occurred after the play is over. A new series was not awarded, It was earned by A's efforts. Therefore they get the first down, and then the foul for the DEAD BALL late hit is enforced. You can't quote rules and then misapply them. Another great call from the Derock rule book.
__________________
Steve
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 08:24pm
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Oh boy.. When in doubt, crack open the case book and you're sure to find an example somewhere.
Situation 5.3.1 C: 3rd&10 for A from the B-40. A1 gains 10 yards and is downed at the B-30. A2 taunts B1 during the run. RULING: Since the live ball action gave a a new series, the line to gain will be established after A is penalized for A2's unsportsmanlike act. It will be 1st&10 for A from the B-45. It makes no difference that this a live ball penalized as a dead ball foul. A dead ball foul for a late hit would be penalized the same way.
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 08:25pm
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What do you mean by a new series was earned by A's efforts??? Are you implying that A gets a new series of downs just because they achieved the line to gain? Rule 5-1-2 says before A is awarded a new series of downs, consider the effects of any act during the down AND any dead ball fouls. ____________________________________ But I'm only a youth official so what do I know. Derock
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 08:40pm
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Guys.... He's writing his own book , give it up !
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 08:40pm
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On the play in question A had reached the line-to-gain when the down ended. First down. Check my earlier post and it refers to a couple of case book plays to enforce this. You indicate first down. Then you march off 15 yards against A for a dead ball foul from the succeeding spot -- the end of the run. At that point you apply 5-3-1 and establish a new line-to-gain. I also quoted the previous rule and the big change was no longer did you establish the line-to-gain from the succeeding spot which caused offenses to end up with a new series starting up to 25 yards to the line-to-gain. I think many of us here are in agreement 5-1-2 does not properly convey its meaning and that happens often throughout the rule book. That is why every chapter has a knowledgeable rule interpreter to address these ambiguities.
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Mon Jan 20, 2003, 08:51pm
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Derock.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats right, they got the first down and the play ended before the foul. Its the same concept of penalizing from the spot of the foul after a 40 yard gain. They get the yards they earned without the benefit of the foul. Here,the down was over before the foul was committed. FIRST DOWN. Then enforce the dead ball foul. I think you even stated this in an earlier post. I give up. I think this guy is doing this on purpose to get us angry. Nobody can really officiate like this.
__________________
Steve
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