Should the NFL have Full Time Officials?

[ABoselli]

Go read the NFL book, Derock. It's quite specific regarding what constitutes running into the kicker. It was absolutely by the book. It's under Conduct of Players. I don't have it with me at home, but the supplements (there are 4) further clarify what is and what is not running into / roughing the kicker.

Here it is -

Rule 12 – Article 6


No defensive player may run into or rough a kicker who kicks from behind his line unless such contact:

a) Is incidental to and after he has touched the kick in flight
b) Is caused by the kicker’s own motions
c) Occurs during a quick kick
d) Occurs during a kick or after a run behind the line
e) Occurs after the kicker recovers a loose ball on the ground or
f) Is caused because a defender is blocked into the kicker

Supplemental Notes –

1) Avoiding the kicker is the primary responsibility of the defensive players if they do not touch the kick
2) Any contact with the kicker by a single defensive player who has not touched the kick is running into the kicker
3) Any unnecessary roughness committed by the defensive players is roughing the kicker. Severity of contact and potential for injury are to be considered
4) When two defensive players are making a bona fide attempt to block a kick from scrimmage (punt, drop kick, and/or place kick) and one of them runs into the kicker after the kick has left the kicker’s foot at the same instant the second player blocks the kick, the foul for running into the kicker shall not be enforced, unless in the judgment of the referee, the player running into the kicker was clearly the direct cause of the kick being blocked.
5) If in the judgment of the referee any of the above action is innecessary roughness, the penalty for roughing the kickershall be enforced from the previous spot as a foul during the kick.

Nothing in there about 'unless its the playoffs and its a really big play and the kicker missed and somebody might get really mad and its in OT...'


[Edited by ABoselli on Jan 15th, 2003 at 09:26 AM]

[4 Sport Official]

Originally posted by Derock1986

Here is the rule to support my statement...NFHS Rule 9-4-4c.

A defensive player shall neither run into the kicker nor holder, which is contact that displaces the kicker or holder without roughing; nor block, tackle or charge into the kicker of a scrimmage kick, or the place-kick holder, other than when:

c. Contact is slight and is partially caused by movement of the kicker.

Clearly a questionable call? I disagree.

More importantly, why is a guy who supposedly did not own/use a rule book quoting Fed rules, in reference to a situation in an NFL game?

Kickers are highly-paid specialists at the NFL level, and are afforded an even higher level of protection.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by ABoselli
Go read the NFL book, Derock. It's quite specific regarding what constitutes running into the kicker. It was absolutely by the book. It's under Conduct of Players. I don't have it with me at home, but the supplements (there are 4) further clarify what is and what is not running into / roughing the kicker.

Here it is -

Rule 12 – Article 6


No defensive player may run into or rough a kicker who kicks from behind his line unless such contact:

a) Is incidental to and after he has touched the kick in flight
b) Is caused by the kicker’s own motions
c) Occurs during a quick kick
d) Occurs during a kick or after a run behind the line
e) Occurs after the kicker recovers a loose ball on the ground or
f) Is caused because a defender is blocked into the kicker

Supplemental Notes –

1) Avoiding the kicker is the primary responsibility of the defensive players if they do not touch the kick
2) Any contact with the kicker by a single defensive player who has not touched the kick is running into the kicker
3) Any unnecessary roughness committed by the defensive players is roughing the kicker. Severity of contact and potential for injury are to be considered
4) When two defensive players are making a bona fide attempt to block a kick from scrimmage (punt, drop kick, and/or place kick) and one of them runs into the kicker after the kick has left the kicker’s foot at the same instant the second player blocks the kick, the foul for running into the kicker shall not be enforced, unless in the judgment of the referee, the player running into the kicker was clearly the direct cause of the kick being blocked.
5) If in the judgment of the referee any of the above action is innecessary roughness, the penalty for roughing the kickershall be enforced from the previous spot as a foul during the kick.

Nothing in there about 'unless its the playoffs and its a really big play and the kicker missed and somebody might get really mad and its in OT...'


[Edited by ABoselli on Jan 15th, 2003 at 09:26 AM]

Aboselli, game sense or feel for the game. Does these terms mean "anything" in officiating football?

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Derock-

It sounds like you're the type that changes the rules as the game goes along. Like in the NHL where nothing is called in the third period and players get away with anything short of murder.

[JMN]

Derock,

Are you off the medicine again?

We thought we had you gaining in stature around the end of December and early January, but it appears that you've fallen off the "rules" wagon again into that ugly puddle of "game non-sense".

I'll pray for you!!

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by 4 Sport Official

Clearly a questionable call? I disagree.

More importantly, why is a guy who supposedly did not own/use a rule book quoting Fed rules, in reference to a situation in an NFL game?

Kickers are highly-paid specialists at the NFL level, and are afforded an even higher level of protection.

What does how much kickers make have to do with anything???

More importantly, Nedney himself admitted that his "acting" might land him a role in Hollywood (or something to that effect) which leads me to believe that even Nedney didn't in all honesty believe he deserved the call.

The call was definitely a "questionable" call. If it wasn't questionable, why is the play under such scrutiny???

What I saw was slight contact not enough to warrant a flag under any situation especially at this critical point in the game. As an official in any sport, you never want to make a call that decides the game unless it is blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes and NOT just "my judgement". When you make this call in this situation, you automatically give a team an edge.

The Titans gained an advantageous call that decided the game on a questionable foul. This is a bad call--should not have been made. Game sense, GET SOME!!!!

[ABoselli]

Aboselli, game sense or feel for the game. Does these terms mean "anything" in officiating football?

Do you mean 'Do these terms mean anything in officiating football'?

I get the feeling that because it was in OT, you think it shouldn't be called. Do we then suspend the calling of fouls near the end of games and in OT? Is this what you mean by 'feel for the game'? So the offended team should just bite the bullet because we should be so afraid of calling anything that players can just do whatever they want?

Having an effect on the kick is immaterial - that's not the intent of the rule. The intent is to get players to lay off the kicker. They put the running into part so they could penalize less severe infractions without having to impose 15 yards and a first down. That's what happened here.

Maybe in your 45 minute youth games, you do things a bit different. Enforce the rules you can manage to remember, misapply those you can't etc etc.

It comes down to having some stones in that situation and Blum has got an elephant sized brass pair as far as I'm concerned.

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

Ok Derock thats it, I now know youre a complete fool and should not be on a football field.

Derock if this call isn't made then that official shouldn't be in the NFL, hell even a youth ball official like yourself should call that every time. it doesn't matter if the games on the line or not.

oh and Derock you can not hit the kicker if hes just standing there either.
Now was this a good acting job? maybe but its still a penalty.

Derock you do not have to kill the kicker to draw a flag for running into the kicker or even roughing the kicker. The kicker is afforded safety after he kicks the ball you can not hit him. Hell even Bill Cohwer changed his mind about the call, now hes saying he was pissed that he didn't get the time out in time.

[JMN]

[/B][/QUOTE]
As an official in any sport, you never want to make a call that decides the game unless it is blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes and NOT just "my judgement".

Hey, Rock.

As an official, you automatically assume the role of potentially making a call that could have an impact on the game. That's what officials do! We enforce the rules! Although we use game sense, we don't duck tough calls by hiding behind a "game sense curtain" and we surely don't back away from calling fouls involving player safety.

Derock, maybe we should revamp officiating and take a poll of the fans to see if a foul should be called because we shouldn't throw a flag unless it is "blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes". And not to use "judgement" would rewrite the rule books as roughing the kicker is a judgement call!

Maybe you can teach me something. When is it OK not to throw a flag (in youth ball) when the foul is a safety issue? I'm sure you're game sense will kick in soon...

p.s. Derock, why do you lead with your chin????

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by JMN

As an official in any sport, you never want to make a call that decides the game unless it is blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes and NOT just "my judgement".

Hey, Rock.

As an official, you automatically assume the role of potentially making a call that could have an impact on the game. That's what officials do! We enforce the rules! Although we use game sense, we don't duck tough calls by hiding behind a "game sense curtain" and we surely don't back away from calling fouls involving player safety.

Derock, maybe we should revamp officiating and take a poll of the fans to see if a foul should be called because we shouldn't throw a flag unless it is "blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes". And not to use "judgement" would rewrite the rule books as roughing the kicker is a judgement call!

Maybe you can teach me something. When is it OK not to throw a flag (in youth ball) when the foul is a safety issue? I'm sure you're game sense will kick in soon...

p.s. Derock, why do you lead with your chin???? [/B][/QUOTE]

A safety issue??? Running into the kicker is a safety issue but Nedney's safety was at NO time at risk. Safety is of no concern when there is slight contact. If Nedney doesn't purposely spin and fall, would the R still have thrown his flag? Probably not.

Come on fellas, I can't be the only person who see this as a bad call. Get your heads out of the rule book for a second and use some common sense. Nedney put on an act of spinning and falling intentionally to draw the flag. You don't have to know the rules to see that was an act. If Nedney does not put on his act, the contact would not be severe enough to displace the kicker or be a safety issue. The defender had an angle for the ball and was going for the ball--NOT Nedney. He misses the ball, Nedney misses the field goal and receives slight contact. Running into the kicker would be a direct line into the kicker--NOT what we saw.

Nedney's "act" was dishonest and misleading. However, I don't fault Nedney. It is the official's responsibility to be able to see that this "act" is a desperate attempt to draw (or sucker) the R into making a call.

When you're in a close game between two competitive teams that could go either way, it is often 1 play that swings the advantage in the other teams favor. The Titans gained an advantage AND the win from the running into the kicker call.

Officials should have very little, if any, influence on the outcome of the game. This game will be remembered more for that call than the game winning field goal. Bad call.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by ABoselli
Aboselli, game sense or feel for the game. Does these terms mean "anything" in officiating football?

Do you mean 'Do these terms mean anything in officiating football'?

I get the feeling that because it was in OT, you think it shouldn't be called. Do we then suspend the calling of fouls near the end of games and in OT? Is this what you mean by 'feel for the game'? So the offended team should just bite the bullet because we should be so afraid of calling anything that players can just do whatever they want?

Having an effect on the kick is immaterial - that's not the intent of the rule. The intent is to get players to lay off the kicker. They put the running into part so they could penalize less severe infractions without having to impose 15 yards and a first down. That's what happened here.

Maybe in your 45 minute youth games, you do things a bit different. Enforce the rules you can manage to remember, misapply those you can't etc etc.

It comes down to having some stones in that situation and Blum has got an elephant sized brass pair as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, he has some stones alright--one is in his head.

It's a bad call, should not have been made, and Blum should apologize to the Steelers organization for allowing Nedney's act to bait him into a call. The fact that Blum is a professional doesn't mean he doesn't makes (or is that make since you are correcting my grammar) mistakes. I'm sure Blum probably wish he could take the call back.

[ABoselli]

I'm sure Blum probably wishes he could take the call back.

I think we can safely place your grammar and spelling in the same spot as we have already placed your judgement and knowledge. In a big drawer marked "LACKING".

A few months ago, your big chest puffer was "I'm right because I'm wearing the stripes!". I guess your calls are beyond reproach but an 18 year NFL vets are easily dismissed. He must not have any game sense either.

The fact that you have stayed just in youths confirms there is a God.

[KWH]

2001 NFL Playing Rules
NFL Rule 12, Section 2, Article 6, Page 81
A.R.(Approved Ruling) 12.15
Fourth-and-12 on B30. On a field goal attempt which is not good, reciever B1 runs into the kicker without touching the ball.
RULING: A's ball fourth-and-7 on B25. Running into the kicker. If the field goal had been good, no penalty would be enforced on the succeeding kickof, since it was not a personal foul.

Now,
AB has provided the NFL rule,
I have provided the NFL approved ruling,
Blum made the call based on the NFL rule, NFL approved ruling, 18 years of NFL experiance, Game Sense, Common Sense, not to mention the fact that the reciever, (who had not touched the kick), contacted the kicker while the kicker had not completed his act of kicking the ball.

I am sure a lot of things went through Blums mind just before he threw the flag.
I am postive however that he did not ask himself "I wonder what DeRock would do in this situation?" If he had he would have had thoughts like;
1) "Nedney's "act" was dishonest and misleading."
2) Is this foul "blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes and NOT just "my judgement".
3) "Nedney put on an act of spinning and falling intentionally to draw the flag."
4) "Running into the kicker would be a direct line into the kicker--NOT what we saw."
5) I wonder what the NFHS rules say to do in this situation?

No DeRock, I'm fairly comfortable that none of your "brainfarts" passed threw Blums mind prior him throwing the flag.
On the contrary, I believe Blum watched the all the action around the kicker, saw the contact, and threw the correct flag.
Good, and correct, call!

I am also conviced that once again you have made a fool of yourself!

Two questions for you DeRock"
1) What does the "1986" in DeRock1986 stand for? The year you were born?
2) How many field goals do you see each year in your 45 minute "PEE WEE", "BANTOM", and "HERD BALL" games?

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

Derock since when do you have to run directly into the kicker to draw a foul?

Derock you can't be this dumb, can you?

Derock Needley was playing to the cameras when he said he would make a good actor in hollywood, that was acting.

Derock the defender dove and hit the kicker thats called running/roughing the kicker whichever you think the penalty should be. Its not running directly into the kicker. Needley was going down no mater what, he just played into it a little more and it worked. Needley did not take any steps like Cohwer said, he kicked came down on both feet and was hit. easy call.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Derock1986

What does how much kickers make have to do with anything???
[/b]

Other than the fact that owners don't want skill players getting hurt and the fact that these owners and coaches are all on the rules committee? I guess very little unless you are part of the rules commitee.

More importantly, Nedney himself admitted that his "acting" might land him a role in Hollywood (or something to that effect) which leads me to believe that even Nedney didn't in all honesty believe he deserved the call.

I used to play soccer and I'd act to accentuate a foul. Usually there was still a foul, I just made it look worse than what it was. May have been the same thing here.

The call was definitely a "questionable" call. If it wasn't questionable, why is the play under such scrutiny???

Because those scrutinizing the call were on the losing end and/or don't know the rule. Same thing happened with the OS/UM NCAA BCS game and the PI call.

What I saw was slight contact not enough to warrant a flag under any situation especially at this critical point in the game.

Other times this could be said:

"He only slightly grabbed the facemask."
"He didn't trip him with his WHOLE leg. He just used his shin."
"I didn't rough the QB/Snapper THAT bad."
"I didn't strike him in the head THAT hard."

A foul is still a foul no matter when it happens in a game. How many different ways must this be said? The NFL rule has been quoted SEVERAL times.

As an official in any sport, you never want to make a call that decides the game

Actions of players decide games. The player who slid into Nedney forced Mr. Blum to make a decision. Had he NOT slid into Nedney, this would not be an issue.

unless it is blatantly obvious in EVERYONE's eyes and NOT just "my judgement".

Genuine Derock 101. So before we throw a flag, we have to get the approval of everyone? Please stay in Pee-wee ball. I heard Coach "JimNazium" wants more officials like you.

When you make this call in this situation, you automatically give a team an edge.

But the team that fouled has to be penalized. That's what the rules are for. SAFETY was an issue here.

The Titans gained an advantageous call that decided the game on a questionable foul. This is a bad call--should not have been made. Game sense, GET SOME!!!!

I trust Mr. Blum's judgment AND his game sense. You don't just waltz onto an NFL field without it.

Mr. Blum, if you read this, will you be my mentor?