Excessive celebration-Pinstripe Bowl

[ILRef80]

It's tough to defend this one. I have no allegiance whatsoever to Kansas State. I just can't see how you make that call. It was a simple salute to his own fans. It lasted all of one second. The kid didn't even pause. Simple gestures like that happen in every football game, at every level. I'm up for hearing the opposing viewpoint, but I think it's pretty clear that this was an inappropriate flag.

[BktBallRef]

Tennessee players, both the receivers and the QB did it after all three TS passes, as well as one receiver who pulled the belt buckle gag. No flags for any of those, Big Ten crew as well. That's real hard for fans to understand, much less officials.

[JasonTX]

Plays like this were on the NCAA training video this year that instruct officials to flag this. He could have just as easily walked to his team area but instead he put the officials in a position to make a judgement call. 2 officials flagged it independently of each other. What do you do when you have a rule that says it's a foul?

[junruh07]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Plays like this were on the NCAA training video this year that instruct officials to flag this. He could have just as easily walked to his team area but instead he put the officials in a position to make a judgement call. 2 officials flagged it independently of each other. What do you do when you have a rule that says it's a foul?

Obviously, you call the foul. Because of the two flags, I figured that this crew had run into this situation earlier in the season or in training, and someone told them to penalize this action. Where it becomes frustrating is when very similar, or even bigger, actions in other games are not penalized. It isn't just frustrating for the fans of that team, but also for others who are quick to criticize, but slow to look up the actual rule. For the record, I am a K-State student and fan, but I really am a basketball official, so I am trying really hard to participate in the discussion but not be a fanboy.

[ottobabble]

Originally Posted by junruh07

Obviously, you call the foul. Because of the two flags, I figured that this crew had run into this situation earlier in the season or in training, and someone told them to penalize this action. Where it becomes frustrating is when very similar, or even bigger, actions in other games are not penalized. It isn't just frustrating for the fans of that team, but also for others who are quick to criticize, but slow to look up the actual rule. For the record, I am a K-State student and fan, but I really am a basketball official, so I am trying really hard to participate in the discussion but not be a fanboy.

I totally understand this, but how can a salute be seen as excessive and not the "O" crap the Syracuse player did especially after the "throw back" TD? If you look at this play, why was it OK for the Syracuse player to grab the KSU player 8 yards deep in the EZ just before the KSU player saluted?

KSU lost this game for a lot of reasons (horrible defense, questionable coaching decisions, etc...) other than a horse crud call (in my humble opinion). Two flags on that doesn't change my opinion of it. Why did they chose this one to flag and not flag all the other obvious "calling attention to themselves" acts.

I will offer one possbile explaination, there could have been warnings communicated to the KSU sideline prior to this, and if so, I put it all on the player and the coaching staff.

Obviously there is inconsistency in how the rule is interpreted across the country and that needs to be fixed pronto.

[JasonTX]

It will never be consistent because each official has to judge whether or not the action is legal or not. They want officials to allow "spontaneous" celebrations, but not something that draws attention to ones self. You can certainly see now how much attention this has drawn. What is so hard for these players to just hand the ball to the official and then go to the huddle or his sideline. Go to the sideline and celebrate all you want. It really is that simple. Each official has a different level to what he "feels" is ok and what he don't. We've been told if we "feel" ok with the action, then let it go. What I feel is ok, may not feel ok with another official. Players and coaches need to understand that it will never be called the same so just don't put the official in a position to judge any action that could be deemed illegal.

[ottobabble]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

. What is so hard for these players to just hand the ball to the official and then go to the huddle or his sideline. Go to the sideline and celebrate all you want. It really is that simple. Each official has a different level to what he "feels" is ok and what he don't. We've been told if we "feel" ok with the action, then let it go. What I feel is ok, may not feel ok with another official. Players and coaches need to understand that it will never be called the same so just don't put the official in a position to judge any action that could be deemed illegal.

Well said!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

We've been told if we "feel" ok with the action, then let it go. What I feel is ok, may not feel ok with another official. Players and coaches need to understand that it will never be called the same so just don't put the official in a position to judge any action that could be deemed illegal.

I'm sorry but that's just unacceptable. If this rule is going to work then the powers that be need to develop very specific guidelines as to what is allowed, what isn't, and stick to it. As officials we are always working to be consistent. To accept inconsistency in this situation, when 95% of the time this call involves scoring opportunities is total BS.

I'm usually not critical of officials in such situation but there's no way to defend that call. It's obvious that the two officials didn't take any of the bullet points listed in the memo that TXMike posted into account. If they did, no flag would have been thrown.

Yes, coaches need to coach their players not to put themselves in a position where it can be called. But if I salute in one game and it's not called, it shouldn't be called if I salute in the next game.

The "how does it feel" mentality is BS and makes the officials the bad guys.

[Reffing Rev.]

Was he celebrating or showboating?

It is impossible to list every action a player or team might commit and define which ones are acceptable and which ones are excessive. Therefore it remains in the realm of judgment.

Forget listing all of the unacceptable behaviors and lets agree on a short list of acceptable behaviors. I'll start with 1.

I remember in high school being coached with this line: After you score give the ball to the official and go to the huddle: they can't flag you for that.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Plays like this were on the NCAA training video this year that instruct officials to flag this. He could have just as easily walked to his team area but instead he put the officials in a position to make a judgement call. 2 officials flagged it independently of each other. What do you do when you have a rule that says it's a foul?

OK, I can with that. But why doesn't another crew from the same conference make the same call when players in their game repeatedly commit the same act? That's inconsistency and it makes the crew look very bad.

[RealityCheck]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

OK, I can with that. But why doesn't another crew from the same conference make the same call when players in their game repeatedly commit the same act? That's inconsistency and it makes the crew look very bad.

Big Ten officiating had a bad day all around...this crew flags a minor salute that should draw a warning at most and the UNC-Tennessee crew can't count to 12 (players participating in formation).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Plays like this were on the NCAA training video this year that instruct officials to flag this. He could have just as easily walked to his team area but instead he put the officials in a position to make a judgement call. 2 officials flagged it independently of each other. What do you do when you have a rule that says it's a foul?

When no one else is calling it that way, you don't call it. It was extremely inconsistent with the normal level of enforcement on post-score celebrations.

Originally Posted by Cobra

Not really...you are making it sound like the official is disregarding the bullet points.

You are saying that if the official had done it the way the memo instructs that a foul would not have been called.

I read those bullet points...by what is written by the NCAA the action didn't fit the NCAA's criteria for a flag.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I read those bullet points...by what is written by the NCAA the action didn't fit the NCAA's criteria for a flag.

Well did you see the video examples? There have been a lot of videos on these situations and gestures to the crowd that were deemed illegal. Maybe there was not a "salute" but there are many actions including several signals that were said to be illegal and inappropriate.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Dave Parry and NCAA Rules Committee Chair Connecticut coach Randy Edsall speak up on situation

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Dave Parry and NCAA Rules Committee Chair Connecticut coach Randy Edsall speak up on situation

Peace

Yes, he did...and he all but said it was not consistent with how it has been called over the season...

Parry also said the rule book supports officials who flagged......

"It's a judgment call, but technically speaking such acts that bring attention to yourself, those are fouls," he said. "Some people would say it's a little too technical, too marginal, but as it's written, officials are covered by the rule."

...

Edsall added he'd like to see more consistency in the way the rule is enforced.

"Well, I do think that there is some inconsistencies maybe between conferences. I think we're getting closer.

The language chosen here is not supportive of the officials. It just gives them a little cover. It is a lot closer to saying...."Yes, by the book, they got it right, but..."

There was no language along the lines of "It was a good call", "they made the right decision", etc.