Pittsburg/Miami Fumble

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by shave-tail

Saying we don't know who recovered the ball only makes me think that they decided to say that instead of IW, because why would the officials all stop doing their job unless they also heard the whistle and saw the touchdown signal?

No, it wasn't clear on video who recovered the ball. If it was clear then they would have given them the ball. This is not an IW.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Cobra

No, it wasn't clear on video who recovered the ball. If it was clear then they would have given them the ball. This is not an IW.

How was it not clear? A Dolphin handed the ball to the referee.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

How was it not clear? A Dolphin handed the ball to the referee.

I see B pick up a dead ball and hand it to an official every week. We know it was dead at that point. What we don't know is who had it when it became dead.

[asdf]

How many times have you seen the ball given back to the fumbling team because the officials had no idea who had the ball when it became dead?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by asdf

How many times have you seen the ball given back to the fumbling team because the officials had no idea who had the ball when it became dead?

I think this is the second time I've seen it. I agree that they should have kept working when the ball came loose, but they didn't. Guessing that the Dolphins recovered it doesn't correct the first error. You wouldn't make a guess as to how a play would have ended if you had an IW either.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by asdf

How many times have you seen the ball given back to the fumbling team because the officials had no idea who had the ball when it became dead?

Not THAT often. Maybe twice that I can remember. You know all the pileups are scrums and the ball changes hands 20 times in there... what is nearly always ruled is who has it when they finally get to the bottom of the pile, which, in this case, was the Dolphins.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

How was it not clear? A Dolphin handed the ball to the referee.

Who ends up with the ball does not matter. It was not clear who recovered the ball. There was a big pile on the ground with people diving for the ball; it was not clear who recovered the ball.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Whether it was an IW or not under NFL rules, I don't know. But that is pretty much the way it was treated.

This play was no different than any other challenge on a fumble in the NFL when the initial call was no fumble. It has to be clear which team recovers the ball in order to give them the ball. Normally it is clear, this time it was not.

[wwcfoa43]

The problem is that the Replay System requires indisputable visual evidence to award the ball.

I remember Mike Pereira on officials review talking about the change that allowed more fumbles to be reviewed and he was clear that there was no way they were going to use Instant Replay to award possession in a scrum situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Cobra

This play was no different than any other challenge on a fumble in the NFL when the initial call was no fumble. It has to be clear which team recovers the ball in order to give them the ball. Normally it is clear, this time it was not.

You just contradicted yourself. It is different because of exactly what you posted. It was not clear which team recovered the ball.

Because the play was initially ruled a TD, the officials didn't dig to see who recovered the ball. I saw it and realized that even before the reply. I knew that even if it was ruled a fumble, Pittsbirgh was going to get th ball back.

And that's waht was different compared to 99% of the fumble reviews in the NFL.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You just contradicted yourself. It is different because of exactly what you posted. It was not clear which team recovered the ball.

Because the play was initially ruled a TD, the officials didn't dig to see whpo recovered the ball. I saw it and realized that even before the reply. I knew that even if it was ruled a fumble, Pittsbirgh was going to get th ball back.

And that's waht was different compared to 99% of the fumble reviews in the NFL.

No, you don't get it. Every type of review where the ball is ruled dead but was possible a fumble is the same. When the referee looks at the video it must be clear who recovered the ball. In this play the ball was under a pile of players.

NFL Rulebook

The Replay System will cover the following play situations only

2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a fumble by
an opponent or a teammate occurs during the continuing action of the play.
Note 1: If the ruling of down by contact is changed, the ball belongs to the recovering
player at the spot of the recovery of the fumble, and any advance is nullified.
Note 2: Continuing action is any action that occurs through the recovery of the fumble.
Note 3: If the Referee does not have indisputable visual evidence as to which player
recovered the fumble, the ruling of down by contact will stand.
Note 4: This does not apply to quarterback pass/fumbles, complete/incomplete
passes, or the ruling of forward progress.

[BktBallRef]

Oh, I get it just fine. While every review maybe the same, every play is NOT the same. In this play, the crew failed to determine who recovered the fumble, something that doesn't happen 99% of the time.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Oh, I get it just fine. While every review maybe the same, every play is NOT the same. In this play, the crew failed to determine who recovered the fumble, something that doesn't happen 99% of the time.

Did you not read what I wrote The referee has to be able to see on the video who recovered the ball

Note 3: If the Referee does not have indisputable visual evidence as to which player recovered the fumble, the ruling of down by contact will stand.

Look at the video NFL Videos: Steelers TD challenged and reversed

Now pretend that you are the referee. Do you have indisputable visual evidence as to which player recovered the fumble? What does Note 3 say happens when you don't have that?

Also at 15 seconds you can see the umpire and back judge going through the pile of players while the LJ approaches the pile. Just going to take a guess that one of them saw who had the ball at the end

[football-1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Oh, I get it just fine. While every review maybe the same, every play is NOT the same. In this play, the crew failed to determine who recovered the fumble, something that doesn't happen 99% of the time.

Yes.

I understand the rule on the field was TD and play is over. But why did they not determine who recovered the ball on the field ?
just in case it was a fumble.