Loose ball plays and penalties..help :)

[footballref]

Can you guys help me out here. For some reason I have totally confused myself about loose ball plays and penalties. Can you guys lead me in the right direction on these.

Seems like every time I start to think I get a good grasp I do something and totally confuse myself.

Can anyone simplify #1 - loose ball plays #2 - penalties associated to loose ball plays.

Thanks!

Edit ------

One thing confusing me is 2-33-1d: A loose ball play is action during (d) the run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble

The run leading up to a fumble is what is confusing me....I think.

Here is a scenario:

1st & 10 A from the 50. Handoff to A34. A34 runs to B30 where he is hit and fumbles. During the fumble, B55 hits A13 in the back. B12 then recovers the ball at the B28.

I am pretty sure in this situation, that A will accept the hit in the back and go 10 yards from the spot of the fumble (1st & 10 for a from B20).

What am I missing? Why am I confused so bad by this? Am I the only one?

[jjb]

If a foul occurs during a running play, the basic spot is the spot where the run ended. The run ended when the ball became loose. A loose ball may be part of a running play and should not be confused with a loose ball play.If a foul were to occur (during a running play)while the ball was loose, the basic enforcement spotis the spot where the run ended.
see page 79 in 2010 NFHS football rules. Also , B55 may not necessarily have committed a foul if both B55 and the A player were chasing the loose ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jjb

A loose ball may be part of a running play and should not be confused with a loose ball play. If a foul were to occur (during a running play)while the ball was loose, the basic enforcement spotis the spot where the run ended.
see page 79 in 2010 NFHS football rules. Also , B55 may not necessarily have committed a foul if both B55 and the A player were chasing the loose ball.

That is not exactly true. You can have a series of different plays during a down. You could have a running play, then a loose ball play, then another running play (and continue the cycle. . The classification of the play is based on when the foul occurred and what we consider the basic spot.

Peace

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You could have a running play, then a loose ball play, then another running play (and continue the cycle.

How can a loose ball play follow a running play?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cobra

How can a loose ball play follow a running play?

Really easy. You have a snap (shotgun) then you have a run with the QB.

Or you have a pass thrown (loose ball play), then a run after the catch.

Or you have a run followed by a fumble (end of the related run), then you have another possession and the ball is recovered and returned.

Peace

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Really easy. You have a snap (shotgun) then you have a run with the QB.

Or you have a pass thrown (loose ball play), then a run after the catch.

Or you have a run followed by a fumble (end of the related run), then you have another possession and the ball is recovered and returned.

Peace

I wrote the question backwards. How can you have a running play followed by a loose ball play?

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is not exactly true. You can have a series of different plays during a down. You could have a running play, then a loose ball play, then another running play (and continue the cycle. . The classification of the play is based on when the foul occurred and what we consider the basic spot.

Peace

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying but I'm not sure you are correct. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Until the play concludes you can't say what type of play was in progress when the foul occurred. You can have a LBP only, a series of running play(s) (related runs) or a LBP followed by a running play(s). If there is going to be a loose ball play there will only be one of them and it will occur at the beginning of the down only.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by footballref

One thing confusing me is 2-33-1d: A loose ball play is action during (d) the run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble

The run leading up to a fumble is what is confusing me....I think.

You have to read the whole definition. It is only a loose ball play if the fumble was in or behind the NZ before possession changes. Your situation is a running play.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by footballref

One thing confusing me is 2-33-1d: A loose ball play is action during (d) the run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble

Here's one for you. A snaps the ball at their 20 1/10. A1 throws a pass to A2 who catches the pass at the A-30. B1 inadvertantly grasps A2's face mask at the A-30 but lets go. A2 runs back behind the A-20 escaping tacklers and then fumbles the ball at the A-18. A3 recovers at the A-15. Ruling?

Even though the pass was caught beyond the NZ, A2's run ended behind the NZ when he fumbled. Therefore the pass and A2's run were all part of a loose ball play since A2 fumbled the ball behind the NZ. The face mask foul, if accepted will be enforced from the previous spot. It will be 1/5 from the A-25.

Now let's say that there was no facemask on A2. Instead the same play happens and A3 recovers the ball at the A-15 and runs out to the A-30 where he's tackled. During A3's run A4 blocks in the back at the A-40. Now we have a running play and the basic spot is going to be the end of the run since the BIB occurred beyond the basic spot. Had the BIB occurred at the A-28 (behind the basic spot) you'd enforce it from there since it was a foul behind the basic spot (the One in the All But One).

[footballref]

Thanks guys. I have read all of the plays regarding basic spots for penalty enforcements in the case book. I have also talked my my white hat and have a much better understanding now.

I confused the heck out of myself today on this subject.

[patalia]

Originally Posted by footballref

Can you guys help me out here. For some reason I have totally confused myself about loose ball plays and penalties. Can you guys lead me in the right direction on these.

Seems like every time I start to think I get a good grasp I do something and totally confuse myself.

Can anyone simplify #1 - loose ball plays #2 - penalties associated to loose ball plays.

Thanks!

Edit ------

One thing confusing me is 2-33-1d: A loose ball play is action during (d) the run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble

The run leading up to a fumble is what is confusing me....I think.

Here is a scenario:

1st & 10 A from the 50. Handoff to A34. A34 runs to B30 where he is hit and fumbles. During the fumble, B55 hits A13 in the back. B12 then recovers the ball at the B28.

I am pretty sure in this situation, that A will accept the hit in the back and go 10 yards from the spot of the fumble (1st & 10 for a from B20).

What am I missing? Why am I confused so bad by this? Am I the only one?

I am quite certain that you are not the only one. It might help to remember that loose-ball and loose-ball play are not the same thing. Remember, all loose-ball plays will 'originate' behind the LOS, but could end beyond it where a running play may ensue. Loose-balls can occur anywhere on the field. You will only ever have one loose-ball play in any down, but you could have numerous running plays during one down. All action prior to a loose-ball play are part of the loose-ball play and may or may not be followed by one or more running plays.
For example, on a legal forward pass play, you have a loose-ball play scenario wherein everything that happens prior to the ball being released by the passer retroactively becomes part of the loose-ball play and the loose-ball play status does not end until the receiver or defense catches the ball; at which time a running play ensues. Any fouls by B during the loose-ball play would have previous spot enforcement (except roughing the passer which could have succeeding spot if the ball is caught and advanced beyond the LOS by A), and fouls by A would have basic spot enforcement with the previous spot being the basic spot, but also following all-but-one. Add in PSK enforcement for the scrimmage kick scenarios and you will have this mastered in no time. Good luck.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by patalia

all loose-ball plays will 'originate' behind the LOS

Also free kicks are loose ball plays.

[patalia]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Also free kicks are loose ball plays.

Right. Free kick line corresponds to scrimmage line, but thanks for the extra clarification.

[footballref]

Originally Posted by patalia

I am quite certain that you are not the only one. It might help to remember that loose-ball and loose-ball play are not the same thing. Remember, all loose-ball plays will 'originate' behind the LOS, but could end beyond it where a running play may ensue. Loose-balls can occur anywhere on the field. You will only ever have one loose-ball play in any down, but you could have numerous running plays during one down. All action prior to a loose-ball play are part of the loose-ball play and may or may not be followed by one or more running plays.
For example, on a legal forward pass play, you have a loose-ball play scenario wherein everything that happens prior to the ball being released by the passer retroactively becomes part of the loose-ball play and the loose-ball play status does not end until the receiver or defense catches the ball; at which time a running play ensues. Any fouls by B during the loose-ball play would have previous spot enforcement (except roughing the passer which could have succeeding spot if the ball is caught and advanced beyond the LOS by A), and fouls by A would have basic spot enforcement with the previous spot being the basic spot, but also following all-but-one. Add in PSK enforcement for the scrimmage kick scenarios and you will have this mastered in no time. Good luck.

Thanks! I spent a couple of evenings this past week on this subject and I think I have it down pretty good now. Now it is a matter of seeing it on the field.