Loose ball plays and penalties..help :)

[footballref]

Can you guys help me out here. For some reason I have totally confused myself about loose ball plays and penalties. Can you guys lead me in the right direction on these.

Seems like every time I start to think I get a good grasp I do something and totally confuse myself.

Can anyone simplify #1 - loose ball plays #2 - penalties associated to loose ball plays.

Thanks!

Edit ------

One thing confusing me is 2-33-1d: A loose ball play is action during (d) the run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble

The run leading up to a fumble is what is confusing me....I think.

Here is a scenario:

1st & 10 A from the 50. Handoff to A34. A34 runs to B30 where he is hit and fumbles. During the fumble, B55 hits A13 in the back. B12 then recovers the ball at the B28.

I am pretty sure in this situation, that A will accept the hit in the back and go 10 yards from the spot of the fumble (1st & 10 for a from B20).

What am I missing? Why am I confused so bad by this? Am I the only one?

[jjb]

If a foul occurs during a running play, the basic spot is the spot where the run ended. The run ended when the ball became loose. A loose ball may be part of a running play and should not be confused with a loose ball play.If a foul were to occur (during a running play)while the ball was loose, the basic enforcement spotis the spot where the run ended.
see page 79 in 2010 NFHS football rules. Also , B55 may not necessarily have committed a foul if both B55 and the A player were chasing the loose ball.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by footballref

One thing confusing me is 2-33-1d: A loose ball play is action during (d) the run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble

The run leading up to a fumble is what is confusing me....I think.

You have to read the whole definition. It is only a loose ball play if the fumble was in or behind the NZ before possession changes. Your situation is a running play.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by footballref

One thing confusing me is 2-33-1d: A loose ball play is action during (d) the run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble

Here's one for you. A snaps the ball at their 20 1/10. A1 throws a pass to A2 who catches the pass at the A-30. B1 inadvertantly grasps A2's face mask at the A-30 but lets go. A2 runs back behind the A-20 escaping tacklers and then fumbles the ball at the A-18. A3 recovers at the A-15. Ruling?

Even though the pass was caught beyond the NZ, A2's run ended behind the NZ when he fumbled. Therefore the pass and A2's run were all part of a loose ball play since A2 fumbled the ball behind the NZ. The face mask foul, if accepted will be enforced from the previous spot. It will be 1/5 from the A-25.

Now let's say that there was no facemask on A2. Instead the same play happens and A3 recovers the ball at the A-15 and runs out to the A-30 where he's tackled. During A3's run A4 blocks in the back at the A-40. Now we have a running play and the basic spot is going to be the end of the run since the BIB occurred beyond the basic spot. Had the BIB occurred at the A-28 (behind the basic spot) you'd enforce it from there since it was a foul behind the basic spot (the One in the All But One).

[footballref]

Thanks guys. I have read all of the plays regarding basic spots for penalty enforcements in the case book. I have also talked my my white hat and have a much better understanding now.

I confused the heck out of myself today on this subject.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jjb

A loose ball may be part of a running play and should not be confused with a loose ball play. If a foul were to occur (during a running play)while the ball was loose, the basic enforcement spotis the spot where the run ended.
see page 79 in 2010 NFHS football rules. Also , B55 may not necessarily have committed a foul if both B55 and the A player were chasing the loose ball.

That is not exactly true. You can have a series of different plays during a down. You could have a running play, then a loose ball play, then another running play (and continue the cycle. . The classification of the play is based on when the foul occurred and what we consider the basic spot.

Peace

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You could have a running play, then a loose ball play, then another running play (and continue the cycle.

How can a loose ball play follow a running play?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cobra

How can a loose ball play follow a running play?

Really easy. You have a snap (shotgun) then you have a run with the QB.

Or you have a pass thrown (loose ball play), then a run after the catch.

Or you have a run followed by a fumble (end of the related run), then you have another possession and the ball is recovered and returned.

Peace

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Really easy. You have a snap (shotgun) then you have a run with the QB.

Or you have a pass thrown (loose ball play), then a run after the catch.

Or you have a run followed by a fumble (end of the related run), then you have another possession and the ball is recovered and returned.

Peace

I wrote the question backwards. How can you have a running play followed by a loose ball play?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I wrote the question backwards. How can you have a running play followed by a loose ball play?

OK, I still answered your question.

A QB that takes the snap drops back to pass and then passes the ball. You have a running play that turns into a loose ball play. When the foul takes place is how you determine the basic spot.

Peace

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is not exactly true. You can have a series of different plays during a down. You could have a running play, then a loose ball play, then another running play (and continue the cycle. . The classification of the play is based on when the foul occurred and what we consider the basic spot.

Peace

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying but I'm not sure you are correct. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Until the play concludes you can't say what type of play was in progress when the foul occurred. You can have a LBP only, a series of running play(s) (related runs) or a LBP followed by a running play(s). If there is going to be a loose ball play there will only be one of them and it will occur at the beginning of the down only.

[tow]

Aren't runs that precede the loose ball play considered part of loose ball play?
2-31-1d

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by tow

Aren't runs that precede the loose ball play considered part of loose ball play?
2-31-1d

Yes.

[ajmc]

For what it's worth, I've always found it easier to focus on isolating what a loose ball play is, because that's fairly limited to 3 basic things.
(NF:10-3-3-1) A loose ball play is action during:
a. A freekick or scrimmage kick, other than those defined in 2-33-1a.
b. A legal forward pass.
c. A backwards pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble by A from in or behind the NZ and prior to a
change of possession.

A "Running Play" is any action not included in Article 1 (NF: 10-3-3-2).

As suggested above, a ball becoming loose during a running play is quite different than a "loose ball play", which is limited to the 3 choices shown above. So, if it's NOT a legal forward pass, a legal kick or a backwards pass, or fumble by A BEHIND the line, you're dealing with a "running play" which may, or may not include the ball being loose at some point.

[Mike L]

FBref,

the problem you're having is the same a lot of people have with less than well written NFHS rules. 2-33-1-d is one such rule. In typical NFHS rules and/or test writing fashion, a single word in the sentence can make a HUGE difference in understanding the rule/question. The word in this particular rule is "such".
Because of the word "such", d is referring back to a/b/c which define the actions that are loose ball plays and makes the runs that happen before those actions also included. The problem becomes in "d" they just say fumble, but you have to know because of "such" they are referring to a fumble behind the NZ only as mentioned in "c".