Wrong call

[jemiller]

We had a crew in the area, not mine thankfully, that basically made a big mistake on a call.

K punts to R, during the run back R commits a block in the back.;...good so far. Then K team member #12 comes on to the field to view the action...another flag, but no problem, resulting runback ends in a touchdown.

So what's the call?

This crew waved off the block in the back, waved off the substitution penalty, and gave the R team the touch down. They talked to the coach, and their 5 man crew for 10 minutes or so trying to sort it out, and that is what they came up with!

The team that had the call go against them was leading 8-0 at the time, and went on to lose the game 22-18. So it was a game changer.

So the question is what is the call? There is some issue of whether or not it was a live ball and a dead ball foul. They both occurred during the same play, so I don't think that this makes a difference. (In my humble opinion)

thanks, Jim

[chymechowder]

Assuming that #12 was just moseying out onto the field and didn't participate in the play, then in NCAA that would be treated as a dead ball foul. 5 yards from the succeeding spot.

So you'd penalize the block in the back 10 yards from the spot of the foul. Then march 5 yards the other way.

If #12 took part in the play, then it's a 15 yard penalty. So you'd probably penalize 10 yards for the block in the back, then 15 the other way.

[The NCAA rule actually allows the referee to enforce anything that he deems equitable, including awarding a score. But I think this is mostly for something like a guy coming out of the team area to tackle a ball carrier streaking down the sideline.]

Also, if the BIB occurred deep in R's territory, then R could accept offsetting fouls and replay the down.

[mbyron]

For NFHS, you have IBB on R and and a nonplayer illegal substitution foul on K. Because K's foul is a nonplayer foul, this is NOT a double foul situation (10-2-1), and these fouls do not offset.

The IBB is enforced from the spot of the foul under ABO, so the score is canceled and it will be R's ball. Then enforce the IS foul on K, which has succeeding spot enforcement (3.7 COMMENT).

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by jemiller

We had a crew in the area, not mine thankfully, that basically made a big mistake on a call.

K punts to R, during the run back R commits a block in the back.;...good so far. Then K team member #12 comes on to the field to view the action...another flag, but no problem, resulting runback ends in a touchdown.

So what's the call?

This crew waved off the block in the back, waved off the substitution penalty, and gave the R team the touch down. They talked to the coach, and their 5 man crew for 10 minutes or so trying to sort it out, and that is what they came up with!

The team that had the call go against them was leading 8-0 at the time, and went on to lose the game 22-18. So it was a game changer.

So the question is what is the call? There is some issue of whether or not it was a live ball and a dead ball foul. They both occurred during the same play, so I don't think that this makes a difference. (In my humble opinion)

thanks, Jim

CANADIAN RULING:

The yardages (10 yards for the block in the back and the 10 yards for illegal substitution) will offset. Team B 1D/10 @ spot of ball when the IBB occurred.

[MRH]

Originally Posted by mbyron

For NFHS, you have IBB on R and and a nonplayer illegal substitution foul on K. Because K's foul is a nonplayer foul, this is NOT a double foul situation (10-2-1), and these fouls do not offset.

The IBB is enforced from the spot of the foul under ABO, so the score is canceled and it will be R's ball. Then enforce the IS foul on K, which has succeeding spot enforcement (3.7 COMMENT).

Nailed it!! Also, the chains are NOT set until both penalties are assessed. So, it's still 1st and 10 NOT 1st and 5.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by MRH

Also, the chains are NOT set until both penalties are assessed. So, it's still 1st and 10 NOT 1st and 5.

Good point. I should have included that.

I'll add: clock starts on the snap.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

Also, if the BIB occurred deep in R's territory, then R could accept offsetting fouls and replay the down.

I don't believe these are fouls that can offset. I will need to check the book to confirm.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I don't believe these are fouls that can offset. I will need to check the book to confirm.

They can't.

[chymechowder]

Why couldn't they offset? The book doesn't call it a dead ball foul. It just says "15 yards. The referee may enforce any penalty he considers equitable, including awarding a score."

So where would the 10-1-4 exception be here?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

Why couldn't they offset? The book doesn't call it a dead ball foul. It just says "15 yards. The referee may enforce any penalty he considers equitable, including awarding a score."

So where would the 10-1-4 exception be here?

I had thought you were discussing game administration interference (9-1-6), which is what actually happened and not the hypothetical illegal interference (9-1-5). If it was illegal interference, then I agree, it seems the fouls would offset.

They would not offset for game administration interference since the foul is specifically enforced as a dead ball foul.