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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 10:59am
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Double foul after interception

This is a bit of a trick question... it took me 30 minutes of rulebook reading, 7 times of reading one rule word-by-word like a 2nd grader, and an email to my association's clinician before I figured out what the rule says should be done.

Using Fed rules, 9th grade game:

3rd and 8 at midfield.
Pass is intercepted by B1 on B's 40-yard line.
During the return, B2 holds A3 at B's 45 yard line.
A4 commits a 15-yard facemask foul on the runner (B1) at A's 30 yard line.

How do you enforce the penalties?

For bonus points, how is this enforced in NCAA?

Last edited by jTheUmp; Tue Sep 14, 2010 at 11:37am. Reason: corrected typo.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 11:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
This is a bit of a trick question... it took me 30 minutes of rulebook reading, 7 times of reading one rule word-by-word like a 2nd grader, and an email to my association's clinician before I figured out what the rule says should be done.

Using Fed rules, 9th grade game:

3rd and 8 at midfield.
Pass is intercepted by B1 on B's 40-yard line.
During the return, B2 holds A3 at B's 45 yard line.
A4 commits a 15-yard facemask foul on the runner (B2) at A's 30 yard line.

How do you enforce the penalties?

For bonus points, how is this enforced in NCAA?
NFHS answer:

This is not a trick question, just complicated and no one in the stands or side lines know the rule.

Both penalties are post change of possesion. Therefore, you go to team B with the first penalty. If they accept the facemask, the penalty will be double foul and replay the down. If they decline the penalty, they will retain possesion of the ball. Now you go to team B. They will most likely accept holding penalty, 10 yards from the spot of the foul.

1st and 10, B ball on their own 35. Both coaches have confused looks on their face. The fans are screaming lots of stupid stuff.

No bean bag needed in NFHS
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 11:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbking View Post
NFHS answer:

This is not a trick question, just complicated and no one in the stands or side lines know the rule.

Both penalties are post change of possesion. Therefore, you go to team B with the first penalty. If they accept the facemask, the penalty will be double foul and replay the down. If they decline the penalty, they will retain possesion of the ball. Now you go to team B. They will most likely accept holding penalty, 10 yards from the spot of the foul.

1st and 10, B ball on their own 35. Both coaches have confused looks on their face. The fans are screaming lots of stupid stuff.

No bean bag needed in NFHS
Correct.
NFHS Rule 10.2.2
Casebook 10.2.2 Situation B.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 11:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
3rd and 8 at midfield.
Pass is intercepted by B1 on B's 40-yard line.
During the return, B2 holds A3 at B's 45 yard line.
A4 commits a 15-yard facemask foul on the runner (B2) at A's 30 yard line.
I presume that you meant in the last line that the runner was B1, in which case dbking has it right.

If you actually meant that B2 was the runner, and was also the runner when he holds A3, then it really is a trick question; I don't think a runner can commit a holding foul.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 11:36am
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Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire View Post
I presume that you meant in the last line that the runner was B1, in which case dbking has it right.

If you actually meant that B2 was the runner, and was also the runner when he holds A3, then it really is a trick question; I don't think a runner can commit a holding foul.
Yes.. B1 was the runner the entire time. Sorry 'bout that.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 11:51am
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for the record

the NCAA enforcement will be the same...and again no beanbag needed here either
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 11:53am
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Originally Posted by dbking View Post
They will most likely accept holding penalty, 10 yards from the spot of the foul.
Small quibble: in the general case, this holding foul will be enforced under ABO, which in this case makes the enforcement spot the spot of the foul.

Very good answer overall. Might even convince a coach.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 12:19pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
Very good answer overall. Might even convince a coach.
This coach is confused (imagine that!).

So in order to keep possession of the ball after the interception, the facemask is ignored??? While I see that that is the ruling, I'm not sure I lunderstand it. Can someone explain the thinking behind it to my small coaches brain?
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 12:32pm
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clean hands double fouls etc

Coach the quick thought is this. If you accept the FM penalty and they accept the hold you have a double foul, the fouls offset and the down is replayed.

now more technical. The rules surrounding change of possesion fouls offer you some protection. If you got the ball before your foul (the clean hands rule), then you have the option to decline a foul by the other team to keep yourself out of the double foul situation.....
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 12:44pm
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Lightbulb Canadian Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
3rd and 8 at midfield.
Pass is intercepted by B1 on B's 40-yard line.
During the return, B2 holds A3 at B's 45 yard line.
A4 commits a 15-yard facemask foul on the runner (B1) at A's 30 yard line.

How do you enforce the penalties?
CANADIAN RULING:

The INT stands. The facemask is applied from either PBD or PBH at A's option.

We need to know where the ball was when B's hold occurred. From there, we'll go up 5 yards, Team B 1D/10.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 12:50pm
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Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
So in order to keep possession of the ball after the interception, the facemask is ignored??? While I see that that is the ruling, I'm not sure I lunderstand it. Can someone explain the thinking behind it to my small coaches brain?
Cmathews gave the correct rationale, but let me expand a bit: you have a CHOICE between accepting the penalty, which entails a double foul and replaying the down, and declining the penalty, which would allow you to take the result of the play and keep possession.

That's the same choice you have after any foul by the opponent. The only complicating factors here are the change of possession and your own team's foul. Due to the COP you get first choice regarding the fouls; the opponent will also have a choice about accepting or declining the penalty for your foul (they'll probably accept ).
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 01:06pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
Cmathews gave the correct rationale, but let me expand a bit: you have a CHOICE between accepting the penalty, which entails a double foul and replaying the down, and declining the penalty, which would allow you to take the result of the play and keep possession.

That's the same choice you have after any foul by the opponent. The only complicating factors here are the change of possession and your own team's foul. Due to the COP you get first choice regarding the fouls; the opponent will also have a choice about accepting or declining the penalty for your foul (they'll probably accept ).
Thanks mbyron and cmatthews. Now it makes sense even to me...

And the kid who held is gonna be in trouble! Cost us not only the 10 for holding but the additional yards we would have gotten on the FM penalty!
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 02:23pm
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jtheump, I was wondering when you'd post this question here. I'm surprised you didn't do it already. For all, I'm jtheump's LJ.
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