Punt Near Endzone

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbyron

No, Rut's wrong if that's what he's saying (since it's wrong, I'm sure he'll declare that he wasn't saying that ).

What did I say that was wrong? I said you can take the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. What I said was very basic. If you want to get into all the situations then that is OK, but not what was asked in the OP.

You did not say anything different than what I said at all. I just did not get into all the scenarios of the rule or when the rules apply or do not apply. And I would not do that considering that is not what the question was about.

Oh, I should have said that if the spot of first touching is one spot and R muffs the ball that R can take the ball at the spot of first touching?

Or should I have said that if the ball is touched first touched and the ball goes into the EZ that if the spot of first touching is in advance of the touch back spot (the 20), R can take the ball at the advanced spot when the ball is declared dead?

Maybe I should have said that R does not have to take the spot of first touching if they advance the ball beyond the spot of first touching?

Or better yet, what about penalty enforcement? What about inadvertent whistles? What about PSK enforcement that might apply to this situation as well?

Sorry but this is why some of you guys amaze me. The question is what we look for to place the ball near the EZ, not what first touching means and all the situations it applies or does not apply. Now we look for a lot of things, but I do not think he wanted to know all the rules or would necessarily understand all the rules as he is not a football official. If a fan asks you a question you start chapter and verse with every situation or rule that applies in your explanation. If you do WOW is all I can say. It only makes me wonder what those you actually work with think of you if that is the case.

The man asked about a how to make a turkey sandwich, he did not ask how to shoot the turkey, how to take the feathers off and where to cut the turkey and store the turkey. My Lord, people here really need to answer the question that was asked, not all the situations all the rules apply.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What did I say that was wrong? I said you can take the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. What I said was very basic. If you want to get into all the situations then that is OK, but not what was asked in the OP.

You did not say anything different than what I said at all. I just did not get into all the scenarios of the rule or when the rules apply or do not apply. And I would not do that considering that is not what the question was about.

Oh, I should have said that if the spot of first touching is one spot and R muffs the ball that R can take the ball at the spot of first touching?

Or should I have said that if the ball is touched first touched and the ball goes into the EZ that if the spot of first touching is in advance of the touch back spot (the 20), R can take the ball at the advanced spot when the ball is declared dead?

Maybe I should have said that R does not have to take the spot of first touching if they advance the ball beyond the spot of first touching?

Or better yet, what about penalty enforcement? What about inadvertent whistles? What about PSK enforcement that might apply to this situation as well?

Sorry but this is why some of you guys amaze me. The question is what we look for to place the ball near the EZ, not what first touching means and all the situations it applies or does not apply. Now we look for a lot of things, but I do not think he wanted to know all the rules or would necessarily understand all the rules as he is not a football official. If a fan asks you a question you start chapter and verse with every situation or rule that applies in your explanation. If you do WOW is all I can say. It only makes me wonder what those you actually work with think of you if that is the case.

The man asked about a how to make a turkey sandwich, he did not ask how to shoot the turkey, how to take the feathers off and where to cut the turkey and store the turkey. My Lord, people here really need to answer the question that was asked, not all the situations all the rules apply.

Peace

All those words, and you STILL can't answer mbcrowder's question.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What did I say that was wrong? I said you can take the spot of first touching or the dead ball spot. What I said was very basic. If you want to get into all the situations then that is OK, but not what was asked in the OP.

You did not say anything different than what I said at all. I just did not get into all the scenarios of the rule or when the rules apply or do not apply. And I would not do that considering that is not what the question was about.

Oh, I should have said that if the spot of first touching is one spot and R muffs the ball that R can take the ball at the spot of first touching?

Or should I have said that if the ball is touched first touched and the ball goes into the EZ that if the spot of first touching is in advance of the touch back spot (the 20), R can take the ball at the advanced spot when the ball is declared dead?

Maybe I should have said that R does not have to take the spot of first touching if they advance the ball beyond the spot of first touching?

Or better yet, what about penalty enforcement? What about inadvertent whistles? What about PSK enforcement that might apply to this situation as well?

Sorry but this is why some of you guys amaze me. The question is what we look for to place the ball near the EZ, not what first touching means and all the situations it applies or does not apply. Now we look for a lot of things, but I do not think he wanted to know all the rules or would necessarily understand all the rules as he is not a football official. If a fan asks you a question you start chapter and verse with every situation or rule that applies in your explanation. If you do WOW is all I can say. It only makes me wonder what those you actually work with think of you if that is the case.

The man asked about a how to make a turkey sandwich, he did not ask how to shoot the turkey, how to take the feathers off and where to cut the turkey and store the turkey. My Lord, people here really need to answer the question that was asked, not all the situations all the rules apply.

Peace

Wow, what a verbose way to avoid the question.

You stated that there are only 2 spots that matter. FIRST touching, and the dead ball spot. Since that differs from NCAA (and is apparently wrong according to mb), I asked you if the ball was initially touched at the 1 and rolls back to the 4, at which point it was touched AGAIN and then rolls to the 2 - does FED only give the 2 options you stated - FIRST touching at the 1, or dead ball spot at the 2 - ignoring the 4. You then railed on me for asking you a question about your answer that didn't jive with what I knew from NCAA, and now you say you were not only not wrong, but ignore the 2nd touch completely again.

Not trying to be a jerk here - I was just trying to understand the FED rule, which apparently you stated incorrectly.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Wow, what a verbose way to avoid the question.

You stated that there are only 2 spots that matter. FIRST touching, and the dead ball spot. Since that differs from NCAA (and is apparently wrong according to mb), I asked you if the ball was initially touched at the 1 and rolls back to the 4, at which point it was touched AGAIN and then rolls to the 2 - does FED only give the 2 options you stated - FIRST touching at the 1, or dead ball spot at the 2 - ignoring the 4. You then railed on me for asking you a question about your answer that didn't jive with what I knew from NCAA, and now you say you were not only not wrong, but ignore the 2nd touch completely again.

Not trying to be a jerk here - I was just trying to understand the FED rule, which apparently you stated incorrectly.

I'm not speaking for Jeff, but I think we all know that there are three options for placing the ball here. The disconnect appears to me to be that the first touch and every subsequent touch by K are referred to as "first touching" in the NFHS. 6-1-6 refers to the possibility "there is more than one spot of first touching".

In your situation, R has the option to put the ball at the spot of first touching (either one) or at the dead ball spot. The ball could end up at the 4, 2, or 1.

Technically, the statement "the only key that matters is where the ball is "first touched" and where the ball becomes dead" is true. I'm not sure why people are having so much trouble with it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

I'm not speaking for Jeff, but I think we all know that there are three options for placing the ball here. The disconnect appears to me to be that the first touch and every subsequent touch by K are referred to as "first touching" in the NFHS. 6-1-6 refers to the possibility "there is more than one spot of first touching".

In your situation, R has the option to put the ball at the spot of first touching (either one) or at the dead ball spot. The ball could end up at the 4, 2, or 1.

I guess the suggestion is that you are going to bean bag every spot the ball is touched too?

I would love to see that reference in a mechanics book or training.

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

Technically, the statement "the only key that matters is where the ball is "first touched" and where the ball becomes dead" is true. I'm not sure why people are having so much trouble with it.

Because it is the internet and there are people that are more concerned with unimportant facts than what was asked. I seriously doubt the OPer even knew what "first touching" was in the first place. I can get into some minor or silly details to from time to time on this site, but this is ridiculous (and funny).

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess the suggestion is that you are going to bean bag every spot the ball is touched too?

I would love to see that reference in a mechanics book or training.

Because it is the internet and there are people that are more concerned with unimportant facts than what was asked. I seriously doubt the OPer even knew what "first touching" was in the first place. I can get into some minor or silly details to from time to time on this site, but this is ridiculous (and funny).

Peace

Hmmm. I was asking you a valid clarification question, and stated flat out that I don't work FED. I promise --- I will fail to ask you in the future. It was not an unimportant fact. Had I read what you posted, then for some reason been asked to call a FED rules game somewhere, I would have messed this situation up. Like I said in the previous post, you could have simply said "every time K touches the ball in FED it's referred to as 'first touching'" ... but no ... you had to be you.

(I hesitate to ask, but I'll risk you being you again in hopes that someone else will answer the question without being a jerk... If you don't bag relevant spots, how would you know to spot this ball at the 4?)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Hmmm. I was asking you a valid clarification question, and stated flat out that I don't work FED. I promise --- I will fail to ask you in the future. It was not an unimportant fact. Had I read what you posted, then for some reason been asked to call a FED rules game somewhere, I would have messed this situation up.

I do not know what you do or don't work or have worked in the past. I have working knowledge of many rules as I work multiple levels.

And if you are asked to work a FED game and you do not use a rulebook to learn a rule, you are in bigger trouble than I would have ever thought. I was answer a question for a person that does not work football, not to clarify something for you. It is not my responsibility to give you rules to understand. I will bet I work more sports and levels than you do and it is my responsibility to learn rules, not anyone on this board. I am even having to learn some NCAA Rules that I have never had to apply because of a position change and I have never come here for clarification. That is my responsibility to learn. Maybe you need people to hold your hand, I tend to look in other places.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Like I said in the previous post, you could have simply said "every time K touches the ball in FED it's referred to as 'first touching'" ... but no ... you had to be you.

No, because that is not how I understand the rule or how I enforce the rule or explain the rule. Never have and never will. There is a dead ball spot and a spot of first touching. Pick the one that works for the receiving team and move on. I have never heard it explained the way you did until this very thread.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

(I hesitate to ask, but I'll risk you being you again in hopes that someone else will answer the question without being a jerk... If you don't bag relevant spots, how would you know to spot this ball at the 4?)

You have made this entire thread about you and what you think I should have said to help you out? And you did not start the thread or really need me to explain a rule to you. But I am the jerk? I am the one with the problem? That is very rich for sure.

Peace

[Mike L]

Rut,

although I've vowed to not get in the middle of pissing matches here any more, I think here is the problem with your original post.

Quote from MOOfficial:

I'm not a football official

Quote from JRutledge:

We have a rule called "first touching" and that is a spot where the kicking team first touches the ball.

Now, don't you think someone who has admitted to being a non-football official may not understand that there is a possibility of multiple "first touches" and just might assume your statement implies the only touch that matters is the first one since they are operating under standard English rather than football English? Sometimes, you have to remember who your audience is when you answer.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is a dead ball spot and a spot of first touching. Pick the one that works for the receiving team and move on. I have never heard it explained the way you did until this very thread.

You have made this entire thread about you and what you think I should have said to help you out?
Peace

Aren't we all here to help each other out? You're kind of making a mockery of your salutation, don't you think? I've not attacked you until the post before this (after I was berated and belittled)... so I'm not sure why you're so antagonistic here.

So, just to make clear that I understand that you rule this different from the other FED folks here... you're saying that in the situation I describe (again... ball first touched by K at the 1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K at the 4, rolls to the 2 and is dead there) - you only look at the 1 or 2 as possible spots? Or am I again misunderstanding you? Sounds like your brethren would view the 4 as a potential spot as well.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

I'm not sure why people are having so much trouble with it.

I don't think anyone's "having trouble with it". I stated right up front that I don't work FED. A simple, "in NFHS, 'first touching' refers to all touches" would have cleared it up.

(Kind of a dumb term for 2nd, 3rd, etc touches, don't you think?)

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I don't think anyone's "having trouble with it". I stated right up front that I don't work FED. A simple, "in NFHS, 'first touching' refers to all touches" would have cleared it up.

Fair enough. I'm starting to think most of this thread is about personality clashes anyway, so I'm going to bow out..

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

(Kind of a dumb term for 2nd, 3rd, etc touches, don't you think?)

Yes.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

Fair enough. I'm starting to think most of this thread is about personality clashes anyway, so I'm going to bow out..

Starting to agree with you, although I never felt I had a clash with JRut in the past. How does it go? Lah me!