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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 12, 2010, 10:39pm
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Your opinion...please

NFHS rules...

Team A leads the game 24-21

Team has the ball and has just ran a running play that ends inbounds. The clock is running and the R marks the ball RFP with 2:20 left in the 4th Qtr. It is now 3rd down and 5 to go. When the R marked it ready, the downbox correctly shows 3rd down.

After the ball is marked RFP, the downbox operator gets confused and changes the downbox back to 2nd. The Referee sees this, but since there was already a good 10 seconds ran off the playclock, he does nothing.

With the playclock ran down to 5 seconds, the Linejudge comes running in and kills the clock. He states that the downbox is wrong. It is really 3rd down. The R instructs the downbox to be fixed. And then begins to think about the clock. He realizes that team A has just milked 20 seconds off the clock with no play ran. He also realizes that another 20 plus seconds are about to be ran off the clock before another snap is made. He believes that this just isn't right. So, therefore, he decides to mark the ball RFP and NOT wind the clock.

Not that it really matters, but Team A ultimately wins the ballgame. But I thought I would throw that in there.

Good decision? Bad decision?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 12, 2010, 10:54pm
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Unfortunately, there's no rule basis for what the referee did. I would have wound it.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 07:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
Unfortunately, there's no rule basis for what the referee did. I would have wound it.
+1

It's also unfortunate that there's no mechanics basis for what the LJ did. He's got to know that the clock is more important here than the downbox. I would have wound him!
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 07:25am
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Lightbulb Canadian Interpretation

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee View Post
Team A leads the game 24-21

Team has the ball and has just ran a running play that ends inbounds. The clock is running and the R marks the ball RFP with 2:20 left in the 4th Qtr. It is now 3rd down and 5 to go. When the R marked it ready, the downbox correctly shows 3rd down.

After the ball is marked RFP, the downbox operator gets confused and changes the downbox back to 2nd. The Referee sees this, but since there was already a good 10 seconds ran off the playclock, he does nothing.

With the playclock ran down to 5 seconds, the Linejudge comes running in and kills the clock. He states that the downbox is wrong. It is really 3rd down. The R instructs the downbox to be fixed. And then begins to think about the clock. He realizes that team A has just milked 20 seconds off the clock with no play ran. He also realizes that another 20 plus seconds are about to be ran off the clock before another snap is made. He believes that this just isn't right. So, therefore, he decides to mark the ball RFP and NOT wind the clock.

Not that it really matters, but Team A ultimately wins the ballgame. But I thought I would throw that in there.

Good decision? Bad decision?
CANADIAN INTERP:

I would not have reset the play clock, and I would have specifically told the Team A QB that he has 5 seconds to snap the ball, but that I would wait until he was under centre (or in shotgun) before I wound the game clock and play clock simultaneously.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 07:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
Unfortunately, there's no rule basis for what the referee did. I would have wound it.
For the record, can I assume that you claim there is a method to handle this situation that is recommended, or even in text?

Or, did the R in this case use the elastic power rule?
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 09:33am
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Not gonna deny it. I was the Referee in this scenario.

Not gonna argue with anyone about the fact that there really isn't any rule support for the decision I made here. Unless of course you want to consider rule 1-1-6. I honestly don't think its all that crazy to consider 1-1-6 here.

Bottom line is this. I think we all need to try our best to do what is right. In this particular case I feel very comfortable in that regard. This was a very out of the ordinary kind of circumstance. The LJ should not have killed the clock in the 1st place. But since it happened, I had to deal with it the best way I knew how. I could've told team A that they had a 5 second play clock as someone suggested. But that would've been kinda difficult to do with the 25 second clock on the field in each endzone. I Would've had to go over and coordinate that with the pressbox. It would've been a major disruption to the flow of the game. So, I did what I did.

Obviously I've been thinking about it since the game this past friday, otherwise I wouldn't have even posted this. So, yeah, I wanted to get some opinions from the very smart folks on here.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 09:52am
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Also, since I'm assuming everyone here loves football here just as much as I do. Allow me to share what happened after the 25 second clock scenario. Very wild and crazy game between 2 very determined teams.

With 2:00 left in the game, Team A throws an incomplete pass. Brings up 4th down. They punt to team B. Team B gets a decent return. And within a couple plays or so, team B scores. Score is now 28-24 for team B. Team B then kicks off and team A runs a play or 2. Then team A throws an interception and takes it back for a TD. Now its 35-24 for team B. There is about 1:00 on the clock by this point. Team B kicks off again. Team A takes it all the way for a TD, and they go for 2 and fail. Now its 35-30 for team B. Maybe about 50 seconds left. Team A executes a picture perfect onside kick and gets it. Now, they have the ball with 1 timeout in their pocket. They didn't even have to use it. They threw great passes and get out of bounds to kill the clock. And the eventually scored a TD with 9 seconds left. They went for 2 and failed.

All that was left was a kickoff and one desperation pass. Ballgame over! Team A wins 36-35.

What a game it was.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 09:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee View Post
Not gonna argue with anyone about the fact that there really isn't any rule support for the decision I made here. Unless of course you want to consider rule 1-1-6. I honestly don't think its all that crazy to consider 1-1-6 here.
My Fed rules are sooooo ooolllld that that was 1-1-3, apparently having just been broken out of 1-1-2. However, unless things have changed, there's more specific justif'n, which was at that time 3-5-5h:

"An official's time-out occurs when...he orders the clock stopped...any unusual delay in getting the ball ready-for-play, or similar reasons which are not listed."
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 09:59am
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I would have done what you did: not wind the clock. Rule 1-1-6 allows the referee to rule promptly on situations not specifically covered in the rules. Here Team A ran ~20s off the play clock in a close game. It would not be within the spirit of the rules to allow them to run an additional 20s off the clock.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 10:42am
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I disagree that the LJ should not have killed the clock here. What you did with the situation afterwards is your call.as the WH.

Once my back is turned to my box, I've got no idea what my boxman is doing. A good LJ would catch it and if he couldn't get my attention and get it corrected prior to the snap, his only other option is to stop the clock.

I'd much rather have a correctable clock error than a missed or added down to sort through.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 10:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee View Post
Not gonna deny it. I was the Referee in this scenario.

Not gonna argue with anyone about the fact that there really isn't any rule support for the decision I made here. Unless of course you want to consider rule 1-1-6. I honestly don't think its all that crazy to consider 1-1-6 here.

Bottom line is this. I think we all need to try our best to do what is right. In this particular case I feel very comfortable in that regard. This was a very out of the ordinary kind of circumstance. The LJ should not have killed the clock in the 1st place. But since it happened, I had to deal with it the best way I knew how. I could've told team A that they had a 5 second play clock as someone suggested. But that would've been kinda difficult to do with the 25 second clock on the field in each endzone. I Would've had to go over and coordinate that with the pressbox. It would've been a major disruption to the flow of the game. So, I did what I did.

Obviously I've been thinking about it since the game this past friday, otherwise I wouldn't have even posted this. So, yeah, I wanted to get some opinions from the very smart folks on here.
Nah... just tell the coaches that the play clock will expire at 20 seconds.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 12:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppaltice View Post
I would have done what you did: not wind the clock. Rule 1-1-6 allows the referee to rule promptly on situations not specifically covered in the rules. Here Team A ran ~20s off the play clock in a close game. It would not be within the spirit of the rules to allow them to run an additional 20s off the clock.
The problem with this advice is that the OP IS covered in the rules. LJ called an official's time out. 3-4-2 explicitly requires the clock to start on the RFP after an official's time out (with some exceptions irrelevant to the OP).

It's a very bad habit to think that because one is not sure how the rules apply to a case that one therefore can just make sh!te up. 1-1-6 allows officials to deal with a cow that wanders onto the field, not with unusual timing situations.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 12:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
I disagree that the LJ should not have killed the clock here. What you did with the situation afterwards is your call.as the WH.

Once my back is turned to my box, I've got no idea what my boxman is doing. A good LJ would catch it and if he couldn't get my attention and get it corrected prior to the snap, his only other option is to stop the clock.

I'd much rather have a correctable clock error than a missed or added down to sort through.
I disagree with your assessment of the worse problem. You play the down mistakenly marked "2," then fix the box. Most participants will probably recognize the error anyway.

To stop the clock and restart it after giving A a new 25 is not a "correctable clock error," because it's not an error at all. It's the officials giving A a significant and unfair advantage in their efforts to run out the clock, all because the LJ decided to fix the box. It's taking a minor error and making it major.

The only way to "correct" this "error" would be to invent your own rules, as some here have proposed.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 01:26pm
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There is no easy remedy for what happened here. The "god rule" does allow R the flexibility to handle such situations as he feels is fair, thus making any decision he makes covered by rule.
I have no problem with LJ stopping the clock to correct the down box in this situation. It is a bit harder to explain after the play that "it is really 4th down now but we just decided not to correct it on the box before the last play....". I feel it is easier to add time back on the clock, reset the 25 second clock and go.

Lets not get too dogmatic and accusitory in our opinions here..it is a learning forum

peace
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 02:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
I disagree with your assessment of the worse problem. You play the down mistakenly marked "2," then fix the box. Most participants will probably recognize the error anyway.

To stop the clock and restart it after giving A a new 25 is not a "correctable clock error," because it's not an error at all. It's the officials giving A a significant and unfair advantage in their efforts to run out the clock, all because the LJ decided to fix the box. It's taking a minor error and making it major.

The only way to "correct" this "error" would be to invent your own rules, as some here have proposed.
Ok,mbyron, you have made your point. Allow me to get your call on a couple of other scenarios along the same lines.
In each of these following scenarios, the stage is exactly the same as my original play.

#1 team A comes to the line and the playclock is ticking down to the 5 second mark, and then A75 commits a false start.

#2 team A comes to the line and the play clock is down to the 5 second mark, and then B75 just faints. Falls out, right there, he's out cold.

#3 team A comes to the line and the play clock is down to the 5 second mark. and then A88 (a wide receiver) standing right next to the linesman just throws up his breakfast, lunch AND afternoon snack.

Ok, I'm gonna let YOU answer #2 and #3. But I think we can all agree that certainly in #1 the referee has plenty of authority AND rule support to start the clock on the snap. But what about #2 and #3... ???

mbyron, I have no idea who you are and don't really care. But let me tell you a little about me. I've been officiating high school football for 12 yrs. I've been a Referee for 10 of those years. I study the rules very hard. I make very good on the exam every year. And the exam we take is not the NFHS exam that most other states take. Our exam is extremely difficult. So, please don't be an A$$ and try to make me out to be some guy that just makes up stuff as he goes along. I would imagine that I'm AT LEAST as smart you. So, why don't you leave the attitude at the door?

I don't get on this board all that much. But when I do, its to try and get some interesting conversation going or to get a little advice. What I do not like is DUDEs like youthat just wanna make everything an arguement.
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