Question re illegal forward pass

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

To help make penalty enforcement on fouls by Team A make sense is to think of it like this....
1st and 10 from midfield. A player makes a great run to the 5yd line where he is tackled. His teammate held someone at the 10yd line.

It would be a harsh penalty indeed if we went all the way back to the neutral zone and marched the 10yd holding from there. The guy made 40 yds honestly. The hold at the 10 likely only affected the yards made from the 10 to the 5. So we march the holding penalty from the flag at the 10, back to the 20. That is still enough for a 1st down so they get a new 1st and 10.

You know what would make even more sense? March the penalty from where the ball was when the hold occurred. After all that is how much yardage was obtained prior to the illegal act and so that is what the player should get credit for.

This is what we do in Canada. We use the concept of Point Ball Held to determine the point of application in this situation.

Mind you, finding Point Ball Held is harder than establishing Point of Foul so sometimes I do envy the simplicity of Point of Foul.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43

You know what would make even more sense? March the penalty from where the ball was when the hold occurred.

That's exactly what happens in Two Flake's play. Using the 3 and 1 Principle, the foul is behind the end of the run so we enforce from the spot of the foul. If the foul were in advance of the end of the run, we would enforce from the end of the run.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by Welpe

That's exactly what happens in Two Flake's play. Using the 3 and 1 Principle, the foul is behind the end of the run so we enforce from the spot of the foul. If the foul were in advance of the end of the run, we would enforce from the end of the run.

The Two Flakes play said nothing of where the BALL was when the hold occurred. This is not the same place as where the FOUL is (though in some cases it could be.)

The difference is illustrated in two examples:

1. Ball is at the Team B 25 yard line when the hold occurs at the 20. End of run is the 5.
- In Canada we would enforce from the 25
- In the U.S. you would enforce from the 20.
- In this case, we believe you give 5 yards too many from what the team earned prior to the foul.

2. Ball is at the Team B 15 yard line when the hold occurs at the 20. End of the run is the 5.
- In Canada we would enforce from the 15
- In the U.S. you would enforce from the 20.
- In this case, we believe you give 5 yards too few from what the team earned prior to the foul.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43

The Two Flakes play said nothing of where the BALL was when the hold occurred. This is not the same place as where the FOUL is (though in some cases it could be.)

You are correct, I misread your post. My apologies.

[Robert Goodman]

Why there needs to be a distance penalty for illegal forward pass is (ahem) beyond me. It's an easy enough foul to detect, it's not like you have to make up for them getting away with it occasionally.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Why there needs to be a distance penalty for illegal forward pass is (ahem) beyond me. It's an easy enough foul to detect, it's not like you have to make up for them getting away with it occasionally.

What's your suggestion? - ignoring the penalty yardage?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by waltjp

What's your suggestion? - ignoring the penalty yardage?

Not ignoring it, abolishing it. Loss of down at the basic spot.