Illegal forward pass

Rich · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 10:26am

JV game last night, 4 man crew. I'm R.

QB rolls out left, starts to run. About eight yards beyond the LOS, he options left. Except that from my vantage point it was pretty clear it was a forward pass. No flag from the wing looking right through it. I'm quite a bit behind the QB with a poor angle on such a thing, so I pass on it myself.

I commit the yard line to memory and continue officiating the play.

Since the play ended up on the left side I asked the wing what he saw. He told me that he thought it was forward but for some reason didn't throw the flag. I asked him if he was certain it was forward. He said, yes, he was certain.

I went back to the spot of the pass and threw my flag in the air.

I swear, we didn't get a word of grief AT ALL from the offensive sidelines. turns out they saw it very well. In the end, the defensive head coach was impressed that we would risk looking foolish to get it right, but I did have a talk with the wing afterwards and I told him that it is easier to pick it up than it is to throw it after the play like that -- and if he sees it as a forward pass (like he did) to have the confidence to throw it. I know that the QB was about to get hit so he wasn't looking at a point of attack elsewhere.

OK, so the questions: How would you folks handle this as a white hat? Would you have thrown YOUR flag during the play and have a talk with the wing afterwards giving you the chance to pick up YOUR flag? I could've easily winged my flag in there, but with a linsman right there....

Great FR/JV DH last night. Ended up white-hatting both games against my will

V game tonight. I love Fridays during football season.

--Rich

SoGARef · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 10:32am

I think I would have thrown the flag and then conferenced with my wingmen to see if I was wrong. I agree with you it is a whole lot easier to wave off a flag than to have a very late flag to get a call right.

Derock2004 · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 11:17am

I think I would have talked to the wingman and asked him why he didn't throw his flag if he was "certain" it was an illegal forward pass. As a rule of practice, I only throw my flag on infractions that "I see". I don't make calls for other officials nor do I stop the game to have a conference to discuss what we "think" we saw when a flag was not thrown.

Deep · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 11:24am

I agree with SoGARef. I think since you felt it was pretty clear that it was forward, it would be easier to put a flag down at that time, and then check with the wing afterward. Especially since the spot is important. If you were less sure, then probably best to hold it since you had a man in position to make the call.

Having said that, I had a play in a game Wednesday night where the play went to the LJ's side and ended up scoring. The runner dove the last 3 yards into the endzone. From my vantage point as R, I could see no reason for this other than to show off. No flag from the LJ. I came up right away and asked him if there was any reason for the dive and he said no. I then flagged it for UC. Only response from the coach was "Really sorry about that, we'll talk to him."

I think the difference here was that the spot was unimportant, so I had the luxury of confering with the LJ. Plus it's harder to pick up a UC flag.

Rich · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 11:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by Derock2004
I think I would have talked to the wingman and asked him why he didn't throw his flag if he was "certain" it was an illegal forward pass. As a rule of practice, I only throw my flag on infractions that "I see". I don't make calls for other officials nor do I stop the game to have a conference to discuss what we "think" we saw when a flag was not thrown.

Stop the game? I was in the vicinity following the QB.

Some of have young officials on our crews and while I could've launched a flag myself, I try to encourage my guys to get what they see. And underclass games are as much a learning experience for the crew as it is a game and a learning environment for the teams.

I knew what I saw, but even though I saw it I had an official standing right in front of it. A veteran linesman would've thrown the flag - hence my hesitation, I suppose. I wasn't expecting to have to get involved.

--Rich

Rich · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 11:37am

Quote:

Originally posted by Deep
I agree with SoGARef. I think since you felt it was pretty clear that it was forward, it would be easier to put a flag down at that time, and then check with the wing afterward. Especially since the spot is important. If you were less sure, then probably best to hold it since you had a man in position to make the call.

Having said that, I had a play in a game Wednesday night where the play went to the LJ's side and ended up scoring. The runner dove the last 3 yards into the endzone. From my vantage point as R, I could see no reason for this other than to show off. No flag from the LJ. I came up right away and asked him if there was any reason for the dive and he said no. I then flagged it for UC. Only response from the coach was "Really sorry about that, we'll talk to him."

I think the difference here was that the spot was unimportant, so I had the luxury of confering with the LJ. Plus it's harder to pick up a UC flag.

I had the spot, but I know the perception of walking back to the spot and dropping the flag. Thanks for your feedback.

Regardless, I'm happy that the play happened. I want my guys to see strange things and react appropriately. Yesterday we had a late shovel-pass that fell to the ground, incomplete. I was surprised that I had the only whistle and incompletion and we talked about it afterwards -- turns out the wings were deep (and we were working 4) and the umpire was screened by the linesman after stepping up. Talking about these things afterwards helps all of us, myself included.

--Rich

Derock2004 · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 11:58am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
JV game last night, 4 man crew. I'm R.

Except that from my vantage point it was pretty clear it was a forward pass. I'm quite a bit behind the QB with a poor angle on such a thing, so I pass on it myself.

Rich your statement seems a little contradicting on what you saw. Was it a forward pass? I would have continued the game and made no call.

Rich · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 01:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Derock2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
JV game last night, 4 man crew. I'm R.

Except that from my vantage point it was pretty clear it was a forward pass. I'm quite a bit behind the QB with a poor angle on such a thing, so I pass on it myself.

Rich your statement seems a little contradicting on what you saw. Was it a forward pass? I would have continued the game and made no call.

I said I didn't have the best angle in the original. Best angle as in...someone had a much better angle.

Your choice. Mine was different. No big deal.

--Rich

JugglingReferee · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 05:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
JV game last night, 4 man crew. I'm R.

QB rolls out left, starts to run. About eight yards beyond the LOS, he options left. Except that from my vantage point it was pretty clear it was a forward pass. No flag from the wing looking right through it. I'm quite a bit behind the QB with a poor angle on such a thing, so I pass on it myself.

I commit the yard line to memory and continue officiating the play.

Since the play ended up on the left side I asked the wing what he saw. He told me that he thought it was forward but for some reason didn't throw the flag. I asked him if he was certain it was forward. He said, yes, he was certain.

I went back to the spot of the pass and threw my flag in the air.

I swear, we didn't get a word of grief AT ALL from the offensive sidelines. turns out they saw it very well. In the end, the defensive head coach was impressed that we would risk looking foolish to get it right, but I did have a talk with the wing afterwards and I told him that it is easier to pick it up than it is to throw it after the play like that -- and if he sees it as a forward pass (like he did) to have the confidence to throw it. I know that the QB was about to get hit so he wasn't looking at a point of attack elsewhere.

OK, so the questions: How would you folks handle this as a white hat? Would you have thrown YOUR flag during the play and have a talk with the wing afterwards giving you the chance to pick up YOUR flag? I could've easily winged my flag in there, but with a linsman right there....

Great FR/JV DH last night. Ended up white-hatting both games against my will

V game tonight. I love Fridays during football season.

--Rich

If I know it was a FP, I flag it. If I am not sure, I don't. I would then, as you did, talk to the wing. And I would also throw my flag if he was sure that it was a foul. Good officiating to grab the point of foul line.

I believe I would have done what you did.

jumpmaster · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 03, 2004, 09:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SoGARef
I think I would have thrown the flag and then conferenced with my wingmen to see if I was wrong. I agree with you it is a whole lot easier to wave off a flag than to have a very late flag to get a call right.

This is the mechanic that I was taught and I like it. IMHO, it is easier to wave a flag off than to go back to the spot and throw a late flag. Late flags tend to produce confusion all around.

Regardless of the technique used, flag at the time vs. after the down ends, the focus is to get the call right. Getting the call right is more important than determining what is the proper time to drop your flag.