You Make the Call...

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by waltjp

So what you're suggesting is that anytime the offense has a breakaway run the defensive players on the sideline should run onto the field with their helmets off in order to have the play whistled dead.

But they wouldn't do that, because the penalty would be an awarded touchdown. Isn't that the rule for when a player comes off the bench to stop an apparent touchdown run?

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But they wouldn't do that, because the penalty would be an awarded touchdown. Isn't that the rule for when a player comes off the bench to stop an apparent touchdown run?

Boy, me or you one needs a new rule book.
First of all, there is no rule that gives an official authority to blow a play dead, except for a RUNNER whose helmet has come off.
Secondly, if an official does blow it dead, it's an inadvertent whistle (vulgar language where i come from )
Third, you are correct in your interpretation of a player coming off the bench to stop an apparent touchdown run. If a sub came out and tackled the ball carrier when it was obvious he would have scored, then the Referee can invoke the unfair act rule and award a touchdown.

But the proper call for nonplayers on the field with their hats off during a touchdown scoring play is to let the runner score, then give A the option to accept the USC foul on either the try or the kickoff.
All this is black and white in the 2009 copy of the NFHS rule book.

[parepat]

Anyone know what caused the USC?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Boy, me or you one needs a new rule book.
First of all, there is no rule that gives an official authority to blow a play dead, except for a RUNNER whose helmet has come off.
Secondly, if an official does blow it dead, it's an inadvertent whistle (vulgar language where i come from )
Third, you are correct in your interpretation of a player coming off the bench to stop an apparent touchdown run. If a sub came out and tackled the ball carrier when it was obvious he would have scored, then the Referee can invoke the unfair act rule and award a touchdown.

But the proper call for nonplayers on the field with their hats off during a touchdown scoring play is to let the runner score, then give A the option to accept the USC foul on either the try or the kickoff.
All this is black and white in the 2009 copy of the NFHS rule book.

We had a very similar situation happen to us this year when a team thought the game was over and came running on the field. They realized the ball was still live so they ran back off and never affected the play. Team A didn't score so the game ended but their coaches were screaming at us for not flagging them. We talked about it in the locker room and knew that even if we flagged it, it would not have extended the period so the game was over either way. What we struggled with was what foul would actually apply. We ran through everything that has been mentioned here (illegal substitution, illegal participation, USC, even SLW). We checked with several other officials as well and never really got a definitive answer.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

We talked about it in the locker room and knew that even if we flagged it, it would not have extended the period so the game was over either way.

Actually, it did make a difference. If you had thrown the flag for illegal substitution or illegal participation, since both of those are live ball fouls, A would have had the opportunity to run an untimed down. If you got them for nonplayers being on the field, that's treated as a dead ball unsportsmanlike, therefore no untimed down.
3.2. ART. 3 . . . A period must be extended by an untimed down if during the last timed down of the period, one of the following occured:
a. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted, except for
those fouls listed in 3-3-4b.

ART. 4 . . . A period shall not be extended by an untimed down if during the
last timed down of the period, one of the following occurs:
a. When the defense fouls during a successful try/field goal and the offended
team accepts the results of the play with enforcement of the penalty from
the succeeding spot.
b. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted for:
1. unsportsmanlike fouls,
2. non-player fouls,
3. fouls that specify a loss of down, or
4. fouls that are enforced on the subsequent kickoff as in Rule 8-2-2.
NOTE: The score is cancelled in the event of an accepted foul that specifies a loss of down.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Actually, it did make a difference. If you had thrown the flag for illegal substitution or illegal participation, since both of those are live ball fouls, A would have had the opportunity to run an untimed down. If you got them for nonplayers being on the field, that's treated as a dead ball unsportsmanlike, therefore no untimed down.
3.2. ART. 3 . . . A period must be extended by an untimed down if during the last timed down of the period, one of the following occured:
a. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted, except for
those fouls listed in 3-3-4b.

ART. 4 . . . A period shall not be extended by an untimed down if during the
last timed down of the period, one of the following occurs:
a. When the defense fouls during a successful try/field goal and the offended
team accepts the results of the play with enforcement of the penalty from
the succeeding spot.
b. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted for:
1. unsportsmanlike fouls,
2. non-player fouls,
3. fouls that specify a loss of down, or
4. fouls that are enforced on the subsequent kickoff as in Rule 8-2-2.
NOTE: The score is cancelled in the event of an accepted foul that specifies a loss of down.

Actually the illegal substitution foul we looked at was 3-7-6 "During a down, a replaced player or substitute who enters the field, but does not participate, constitutes illegal substitution." In the penalty section for this rule it indicates this is considered a non-player foul. We couldn't find an IP rule that fit since the players did not participate. So that left us with USC or IS non-player both of which fall under the rule you state above to NOT extend the period. What I would like to know is an official word on what rule applies when this happens.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Actually the illegal substitution foul we looked at was 3-7-6 "During a down, a replaced player or substitute who enters the field, but does not participate, constitutes illegal substitution." In the penalty section for this rule it indicates this is considered a non-player foul. We couldn't find an IP rule that fit since the players did not participate. So that left us with USC or IS non-player both of which fall under the rule you state above to NOT extend the period. What I would like to know is an official word on what rule applies when this happens.

You are absolutely correct. Please accept my apology.

The only option that would have extended the period would have been illegal participation.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

You are absolutely correct. Please accept my apology.

The only option that would have extended the period would have been illegal participation.

Would you consider this USC, IS, SLW, or nothing considering it was the last play of the game and enforcement would not extend the game? Assuming it's not the last play of the game, does that change your ruling?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Boy, me or you one needs a new rule book.
First of all, there is no rule that gives an official authority to blow a play dead, except for a RUNNER whose helmet has come off.

So if the marching band comes onto the field thinking the ball is dead and one of them is likely to have his trombone slid up his wazoo, you let play continue?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So if the marching band comes onto the field thinking the ball is dead and one of them is likely to have his trombone slid up his wazoo, you let play continue?

Yes, see Stanford/Cal.

[jaybird]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So if the marching band comes onto the field thinking the ball is dead and one of them is likely to have his trombone slid up his wazoo, you let play continue?

Absolutely!
Then he would sing a different tune every time he passed gas!! More importantly, it would send a message loud and clear to keep the d@mn band off the field.