You Make the Call...

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by hsfootballfan

We're inside 30 seconds left in the game, score is 23 -20, team with ball is trying to tie the game.

4th and 12, offense opts for a field goal attempt from the 17.

Field goal attempt is blocked but picked up by the holder who rolls to his left, towards the opponent sideline, and attempts a forward pass behind the line of scrimmage. Pass falls incomplete...

Just wondering whether the rest of you hear a radio announcer in your head saying all this when you read this stuff. I do. Anyway...

However, there are flags on the play.

And a lot of other stuff going on as well...

There were players from the opposing teams (defense) bench running on to the field in celebration of the blocked kick, and were within a few yards of the holder with the ball during the play.

The flags were for illegal participation on the defense (during the play) and one on the offense for illegal man downfield.

Initially the team that blocked the kick was given the ball 1st and 10, a simple knee wins the game.

The coach of the team who kicked the field goal goes on to the field and requests that the referees review their ruling and asks them to assess the penalties correctly.

After 20 minutes (or so) of discussion the referees decide that the illegal participation was during a live ball.

During the discussion...an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty was given to the kicking team as well.

What is the correct call (s), what team should have the ball, and where should it be placed.


After your replies, I'll post what the refs decided and link to a video of the play, and the amazing finish.

I can't watch video here, so I'm just going by the description, with some assumptions that could well be wrong. This is an unusual situation that I don't think can be fairly handled by "normal" rules.

When the non-players ran onto the field, I'm assuming that some of them didn't have helmets on, and that all of them thought the ball was dead. That's a dangerous situation for which play should've been whistled dead.

But it wasn't whistled dead. Yet it could hardly have been considered football from that point on, and I think it should've been retroactively considered dead before the forward pass was thrown.

The bottom line is interference with play by non-players, and an equitable penalty should be administered. The time, spot, etc. should be adjusted however the referee thinks equitable. If he thinks a likely score was prevented, it should be awarded. In other words, a pure judgement call. Good luck deciding it, Solomon.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Just wondering whether the rest of you hear a radio announcer in your head saying all this when you read this stuff. I do. Anyway...


I can't watch video here, so I'm just going by the description, with some assumptions that could well be wrong. This is an unusual situation that I don't think can be fairly handled by "normal" rules.

When the non-players ran onto the field, I'm assuming that some of them didn't have helmets on, and that all of them thought the ball was dead. That's a dangerous situation for which play should've been whistled dead.
Are you talking about HS rules? Because there is nothing in the HS rule book that gives an official authority to kill a play because a nonplayer comes onto the field without his helmet on. The only thing that even comes close is the rule about the runner.
But it wasn't whistled dead. Yet it could hardly have been considered football from that point on, and I think it should've been retroactively considered dead before the forward pass was thrown.

The bottom line is interference with play by non-players, and an equitable penalty should be administered.
You would probably change your mind if you saw the video, because while the B players did run out onto the field, none of them got into the QB's way, the Receiver's way, or anybody else's way. In fact, once they realized the ball was still alive they all retreated back to the sideline. The time, spot, etc. should be adjusted however the referee thinks equitable. If he thinks a likely score was prevented, it should be awarded. In other words, a pure judgement call. Good luck deciding it, Solomon.i will agree with you here. We have the benefit of a video and ample time to think through all the possibilities, while the crew on the field had to do something right then and there. I hope it never happens to me!

I still believe it was nonplayer USC.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

When the non-players ran onto the field, I'm assuming that some of them didn't have helmets on, and that all of them thought the ball was dead. That's a dangerous situation for which play should've been whistled dead.

What rule are you using to justify this? The only time you stop the play is when the ball carrier loses his helmet, not any of the other players on the field.

[gtwbam]

Broken62:
I concur with you 100%.
This is definitely a non-player foul
which should be assessed as an USC foul from the succeeding spot.

I'll even go as far to say, you can add another 2 or 3 USC fouls against B for the additional non-players on the field.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by waltjp

What rule are you using to justify this? The only time you stop the play is when the ball carrier loses his helmet, not any of the other players on the field.

I don't know the specific rule, but I believe you are empowered to stop play when a dangerous situation not an ordinary part of the game occurs. In this case it's people entering the field not suited up and thinking the game had ended.

I'm just going by the originally posted description. If, as some viewers are writing, it was just a matter of a few non-players entering a short way into the field briefly without interfering with play and quickly getting off, then it would not be such a dangerous situation.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I don't know the specific rule, but I believe you are empowered to stop play when a dangerous situation not an ordinary part of the game occurs. In this case it's people entering the field not suited up and thinking the game had ended.

I'm just going by the originally posted description. If, as some viewers are writing, it was just a matter of a few non-players entering a short way into the field briefly without interfering with play and quickly getting off, then it would not be such a dangerous situation.

So what you're suggesting is that anytime the offense has a breakaway run the defensive players on the sideline should run onto the field with their helmets off in order to have the play whistled dead.

Why not just enforce the current rules as written that address a situation like this instead of making them up as you go along?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by waltjp

So what you're suggesting is that anytime the offense has a breakaway run the defensive players on the sideline should run onto the field with their helmets off in order to have the play whistled dead.

But they wouldn't do that, because the penalty would be an awarded touchdown. Isn't that the rule for when a player comes off the bench to stop an apparent touchdown run?

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But they wouldn't do that, because the penalty would be an awarded touchdown. Isn't that the rule for when a player comes off the bench to stop an apparent touchdown run?

Boy, me or you one needs a new rule book.
First of all, there is no rule that gives an official authority to blow a play dead, except for a RUNNER whose helmet has come off.
Secondly, if an official does blow it dead, it's an inadvertent whistle (vulgar language where i come from )
Third, you are correct in your interpretation of a player coming off the bench to stop an apparent touchdown run. If a sub came out and tackled the ball carrier when it was obvious he would have scored, then the Referee can invoke the unfair act rule and award a touchdown.

But the proper call for nonplayers on the field with their hats off during a touchdown scoring play is to let the runner score, then give A the option to accept the USC foul on either the try or the kickoff.
All this is black and white in the 2009 copy of the NFHS rule book.

[parepat]

Anyone know what caused the USC?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Boy, me or you one needs a new rule book.
First of all, there is no rule that gives an official authority to blow a play dead, except for a RUNNER whose helmet has come off.
Secondly, if an official does blow it dead, it's an inadvertent whistle (vulgar language where i come from )
Third, you are correct in your interpretation of a player coming off the bench to stop an apparent touchdown run. If a sub came out and tackled the ball carrier when it was obvious he would have scored, then the Referee can invoke the unfair act rule and award a touchdown.

But the proper call for nonplayers on the field with their hats off during a touchdown scoring play is to let the runner score, then give A the option to accept the USC foul on either the try or the kickoff.
All this is black and white in the 2009 copy of the NFHS rule book.

We had a very similar situation happen to us this year when a team thought the game was over and came running on the field. They realized the ball was still live so they ran back off and never affected the play. Team A didn't score so the game ended but their coaches were screaming at us for not flagging them. We talked about it in the locker room and knew that even if we flagged it, it would not have extended the period so the game was over either way. What we struggled with was what foul would actually apply. We ran through everything that has been mentioned here (illegal substitution, illegal participation, USC, even SLW). We checked with several other officials as well and never really got a definitive answer.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Boy, me or you one needs a new rule book.
First of all, there is no rule that gives an official authority to blow a play dead, except for a RUNNER whose helmet has come off.

So if the marching band comes onto the field thinking the ball is dead and one of them is likely to have his trombone slid up his wazoo, you let play continue?