Help with a High School rule

[HLin NC]

This play involves forward progress.

That is what the OP references, he just doesn't use the terminology.

[bisonlj]

Forward progress doesn't apply if the defender hits a receiver but doesn't tackle him. It's just a hit. It would be equivalent to a running back running into the line, hitting a defender and bouncing it around the outside. You don't declare forward progress at the point of the first hit. Forward progess applies if the runner is tackled or gives up his ability to advance.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Forward progress doesn't apply if the defender hits a receiver but doesn't tackle him. It's just a hit. It would be equivalent to a running back running into the line, hitting a defender and bouncing it around the outside. You don't declare forward progress at the point of the first hit. Forward progess applies if the runner is tackled or gives up his ability to advance.

Not according to NFHS 2-15-2 (Forward Progress) "When an airborne player makes a catch, forward progress is the furthest point of advancement after he possesses the ball if contacted by a defender."

Case Book 2,15,1,b (Ruling)" It is a touchdown if the covering official judges the contact by B1 is the cause of A1 coming down at the 2 yl, instead of in the EZ."

The instant the airborne receiver touches down(completing the catch) after he has secured possession beyond the goal line plane, his forward progress and possession of the ball, in his opponents end zone, is a TD, and the ball is dead. After scoring a TD there is no opportunity to advance.

[Mike L]

ajmc,

you left out the part of your case example that states the receiver is hit out of the EZ, lands, and is downed at the 2 yard line. I would say the case book is silent in regard to how to rule if the receiver maintains his feet, which is unfortunate. In every other instance of catch or run, that type of hit keeps the ball alive and progress is not awarded. Is it different when the goal-line is involved? I don't know, but lean toward it's not a TD.
NCAA rules are clear in this instance that if the receiver is hit out and downed it is a TD but if the hit does not cause him to be downed it is not.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Mike L

ajmc,

you left out the part of your case example that states the receiver is hit out of the EZ, lands, and is downed at the 2 yard line. I would say the case book is silent in regard to how to rule if the receiver maintains his feet, which is unfortunate. In every other instance of catch or run, that type of hit keeps the ball alive and progress is not awarded. Is it different when the goal-line is involved? I don't know, but lean toward it's not a TD.
NCAA rules are clear in this instance that if the receiver is hit out and downed it is a TD but if the hit does not cause him to be downed it is not.

Thanks Mike. That is exactly how I understand it at the HS level as well. I could have sworn there was a case play or rule that specifically mentioned it but I can't find it. I know this is how it has been explained at every HS clinic and association meeting I've been to where this type of play has been discussed.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Thanks Mike. That is exactly how I understand it at the HS level as well. I could have sworn there was a case play or rule that specifically mentioned it but I can't find it. I know this is how it has been explained at every HS clinic and association meeting I've been to where this type of play has been discussed.

With all due respect to "every HS clinic and association meeting" within memory, NFHS 2-15-2 does not seem ambiguous. Of course your call, is your call but the NFHS rule and associated Case book ruling seem pretty clear. NF: 8-2-1 simply advises, "Possession of a live ball in the opponent's EZ is always a TD."

Since touching the ground while, retaining possession completes the airborne catch, at the foremost point of progress, according to NF: 8-2-1, the result is "always" a TD. NF: 3-3-4-g indicates, "The clock will be stopped when: (g)
a score or touhback occurs.", so any action after the catch is completed is during a dead ball.

I can't comment on the NCAA interpretation you alude to, but it really doesn't seem to add much sense to the question, as why would any player who has already scored a TD try and repeat that which he has already accomplished? Be that as it may, NCAA rules are simply different than NFHS rules in many circumstances.

[Mike L]

I'm just not sure one way or the other. The definitions of "catch", "forward progress" and "possession" all refer to one another in a confusing way for this situation. Add to that the rule on how a TD is scored and how the runner must be held for forward progress/dead ball to occur and I think it's easy to be confused. I'm still not convinced by ajmc's arguments however and wish there was some clear cut ruling like NCAA has managed to produce.

[whitehat]

We were discussing possession after a catch of an airborne player on a similar thread.
There seems to be an inconsistency: A player is airborne in the EZ (like the forward progress situation described above), he is pushed back out of EZ while airborn to 1yd line. We have said TD because as soon as forward progress is ruled then play is over. I agree. Yet, what if that player looses the ball while still airborne as he comes down on the 1yd line? If the forward progress determines the TD then it should still be a TD right? If not, explain

Further, why is it a TD when forward progress is ruled in the above situation but not a TD, say 5 yards deep in the EZ as A player possesses the ball while airborne, is hit and then looses control of ball on the way down to the ground or as he hits the ground?

[ajmc]

It's my understanding that a catch (anywhere) has not been completed until an airborne receiver returns to the ground in possession of the ball. When possession is obtained while ariborne, and subsequently lost before returning to the ground, the pass has not been caught and the pass is considered incomplete, whereas forward progress is irrelevant.

If I follow your second example, that pass would be incomplete as well, for the same reason.

[Mike L]

It seems, upon further reflection, that your position is:
if the airborne player is over the EZ, possesses the ball but is pushed out of the EZ and comes down inbounds then forward progress is ruled whether or not the player is down or held and a TD is awarded. However, it also appears true that if you take the EZ out of the equation and say the catch is at the 20 and the airborne receiver is pushed back but not downed or held then forward progress is not going to be ruled and the now runner is on his own to do whatever he tries to do.
This seems like a totally inconsistent way to rule on the same action just because of where it happens on the field.

Editted to add: in your example of casebook 2.15.1 if the condition of actually being downed is immaterial, why is it even included in the example? Why wouldn't it just say "while in the air in the EZ, he is contacted by B1 and then lands on B's 2 yard line"? But instead, it includes "and is downed". Do we just ignore that condition/implication of the example?

[whitehat]

Originally Posted by ajmc

It's my understanding that a catch (anywhere) has not been completed until an airborne receiver returns to the ground in possession of the ball. When possession is obtained while ariborne, and subsequently lost before returning to the ground, the pass has not been caught and the pass is considered incomplete, whereas forward progress is irrelevant.

If I follow your second example, that pass would be incomplete as well, for the same reason.

ajmc, so in either case, you are saying (I think) that we must see if the player hangs on to the ball when he hits the ground. That to me is consistent and I would agree.

I may be misunderstanding, I thought some were saying, or implying, that "progress" was the determining factor of a catch in the EZ and not allowing for the result of the play (i.e. coming down with or without the ball ) to be the final determining factor.

[HLin NC]

The OP says in both instances that the A player was "downed". The Rule 7 case play I posted that rules TD is identical.

Where in the world does it state that a player must be "tackled" to stop forward progress? The rule and case book both say "contact or contacted". "Tackle" actually has no definition under Federation rules.

If B55 hits, tackles, contacts, or "lights up" runner A20 at the A35 yard line and knocks him back and he is downed at the A32 yard line, where are you going to spot the ball?

If an A receiver possesses the ball in the air at the 50 yard line and then B knocks him back and to the ground and downed or out of bounds at the 47, where are you going to spot the ball?

Here's a hint:
SECTION 15 FORWARD PROGRESS
ART. 1 . . . Forward progress is the end of advancement of the ball in a runner’s possession or the forward-most point of the ball when it is fumbled out of
bounds toward the opponent’s goal and it determines the dead-ball spot.
ART. 2 . . . When an airborne player makes a catch, forward progress is the
furthest point of advancement after he possesses the ball if contacted by a defender.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

When A possesses the ball in B's end zone it is a touchdown and the ball is dead. Period.

I disagree with this statement. You do not have a completed catch at this point. Thus, I don't believe we have a TD yet.

[HLin NC]

7.5.2 SITUATION J: A8, in B’s end zone, leaps in the air to catch a pass and is
contacted by B2 forcing A8 to come down inbounds on B’s 1-yard line where he
is downed. RULING: Touchdown, since A8’s forward progress was stopped over
B’s end zone by B2’s contact. Even though the catch was not made until A8 came
down inbounds, his forward progress was stopped by B2’s contact resulting in A
possessing the live ball in its opponent’s end zone, hence, a touchdown.

I swear by all that is Holy this is copied directly from the 2009 Fed case book.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

7.5.2 SITUATION J: A8, in B’s end zone, leaps in the air to catch a pass and is
contacted by B2 forcing A8 to come down inbounds on B’s 1-yard line where he
is downed. RULING: Touchdown, since A8’s forward progress was stopped over
B’s end zone by B2’s contact. Even though the catch was not made until A8 came
down inbounds, his forward progress was stopped by B2’s contact resulting in A
possessing the live ball in its opponent’s end zone, hence, a touchdown.

I swear by all that is Holy this is copied directly from the 2009 Fed case book.

You guys are all missing the point. Forward progress only applies when it is "the end of advancement" (as quoted from 2-15-1). If I am hit while airborn and not tackled or the ball is otherwise declared dead because I'm getting pushed back (forward progress awarded), I have not ended my advancement. If that hit only pushes him back and he first touches the ground outside the end zone, he is not awarded forward progress. That is the definition everyone seems to be missing. I don't think it's vague at all. Since forward progress is not awarded if the receiver regains control and gets away from the defender, you do not award forward progress. The case book above even mentions "where he is downed" implying the receiver was tackled as part of the contact.