NJ High School Ref please give me ther rule

redoubtable1 · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 27, 2004, 08:34pm

Real game this past season. It took me four games to get over this loss. We're on the road, TV cameras everywhere. Fourth quarter, 12 seconds left, down 3. After a timeout, we inbound the ball, get the ball to our player at the top of the 3-point circle, clearly behind the line. Player all over him. Releases the ball, shot good, 3-pointer signalled. Tie ball game. Home team calls time, no protest by their head coach and their fans go completely silent. If it wasn't a 3-pointer, somebody would have said something, right?

During the timeout, however, the officials suddenly get together and after a brief discussion and with no explanation whatsoever, they changed the call to a two, leaving us down 1. We lost by 3. If it wasn't a 3-pointer then why did the referees count the goal then wait halfway through a timeout before inexplicably changing it to a 2?

Jurassic Referee · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 27, 2004, 09:26pm

Coach, none of us here can answer your question. We didn't see the play. From your description, the officials obviously thought that it should have been a 2-pointer, and that's why they changed it. End of story. We don't have a clue whether they were right or wrong.

redoubtable1 · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 27, 2004, 09:44pm

No explanation whatsoever. They took the 3 off the board, put up the 2. Then gave us some nonsense about control our players who were understandably upset. To this day, we don't know what their thought process was. They counted it as a 3 then halfway through the home team's timeout, they arbitrarily changed it to a 2.

JRutledge · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 27, 2004, 09:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by redoubtable1
During the timeout, however, the officials suddenly get together and after a brief discussion and with no explanation whatsoever, they changed the call to a two, leaving us down 1. We lost by 3. If it wasn't a 3-pointer then why did the referees count the goal then wait halfway through a timeout before inexplicably changing it to a 2?

I agree with JR, but I can explain one aspect of your story.

I talk about this in almost all Pre-game conferences with my fellow officials. One official might think that he was behind the line and signals as such and another official had knowledge that it was not correct, then he informed him of such. Then they change it. But what is usually normal and discussed in my area, is for the officials that sees that the shooter had the foot on the line or clearly saw the player behind the line, we change it on the spot. They might have done the right thing, but it does look bad. One of the reasons the procedure I just described to you is more acceptable where I live. So basically that is the best I can do. Only the officials can tell you why it was actually changed or what they saw.

Peace

Jurassic Referee · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 27, 2004, 10:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by redoubtable1
No explanation whatsoever. They took the 3 off the board, put up the 2. Then gave us some nonsense about control our players who were understandably upset. To this day, we don't know what their thought process was. They counted it as a 3 then halfway through the home team's timeout, they arbitrarily changed it to a 2.

Coach, what Rut said about officials getting together to try and get the call correct is pretty much standard procedure across the country, I think.And it's the right procedure too. However, the referee then really should have got both head coaches together and explained the change, imo. A quick 10-second explanation can save everybody a lot of grief. It's as simple as saying "We discussed it, and the right call is a 2 pointer because there was a foot on the line". That's really all that was needed. Because they didn't do that doesn't mean that they were wrong though. None of us can say that, not having seen it.

JRutledge · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 27, 2004, 10:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

A quick 10-second explanation can save everybody a lot of grief. It's as simple as saying "We discussed it, and the right call is a 2 pointer because there was a foot on the line". That's really all that was needed. Because they didn't do that doesn't mean that they were wrong though. None of us can say that, not having seen it.

I do not know if I would have given an explaination if I changed it on the spot. But if we had discussed it during the timeout, then I would have tried to tell the coaches something. If you do it on the spot, you are letting it be known that you have a better angle and actually saw where the feet are located. But in this case an explaination would have done everyone some good.

Peace

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 27, 2004, 11:51pm

What's the need for an explanation? If it was changed from a 3 to a 2, there's only one explanation, he was not behind the line.

What did the replay show coach?

SMEngmann · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 28, 2004, 01:03am

Are you sure that it was the three pointer changed to a two? Perhaps there was a scoring discrepancy at the table. Either way, if you asked for an explanation you would have/should have gotten one. Hard to say when I wasn't there.

Snake~eyes · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 28, 2004, 01:50am

Maybe they didn't change it from a 3 to a 2 but found out that the official scorebook had a score of one point less?

redoubtable1 · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 28, 2004, 04:57pm

Dear Snake Eyes, Engmann and B-ball Ref,
There was no scorebook discrepancy. The refs never went to the table until they changed it from a 3 to a 2. My sister has been a referee for seven years but I never asked her. I'm not sure but in NJ I don't think instant replay is allowed. I looked at his feet before he shot. He was clearly behind the line. The refs didn't immediately meet after Linden called time. It was a 2-man crew. They kind of walked over, started discussing, then about halfway through the timeout, changed it from a 3 to a 2. I must admit almost all of the judgment calls went against us. To show you how disciplined our boys are, we got 1 technical foul for the entire season - for forgetting to put a player's name in the book. We understand that alienating the officials is completely counterproductive. To wait that long to change a call without explanation just looked real mysterious.

Jurassic Referee · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 28, 2004, 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by redoubtable1
I must admit almost all of the judgment calls went against us.

To wait that long to change a call without explanation just looked real mysterious.

Could you explain those statements, Coach? Are you trying to intimate that the officiating was less than fair?

BktBallRef · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 28, 2004, 05:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by redoubtable1
I'm not sure but in NJ I don't think instant replay is allowed.

DUH! Of course the officials didn't look at the replay.

My question is what did the replay show? You're complaining that the call was changed, yet YOU and YOUR head coach didn't go back and look at the replay of a disputed play that was televised? Doesn't make much sense.

BTW, you're bias is showing, which effects your credibility. "I must admit almost all of the judgment calls went against us."

redoubtable1 · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 28, 2004, 05:47pm

all season. But we were a very young team. Finished 7-13, had only 2 seniors. Started an all-freshman backcourt. Knew that we would take our lumps. The only game other than this that had questionable officiating was the Prep B Final Lawrenceville v. St. Benedict's. Benedict's got called for 9 technical fouls. The asst. coach got 2 and tossed. First, for "protecting his players". Second for telling a fan to "shut the *&^% up." Then the head coach got tossed. Then the athletic director got tossed for coming out of the stands and asking the officials who was going to coach the team. The freshman coach finished up. Got them to rally too. Then JR Smith got tossed after fouling out and throwing his sneaks into the crowd. I think that was a souvenir thing though. Finally, Galindo got tossed when while waiting to shoot a free throw, he thanked the refs for officiating a terrible game.

In NJSIAA, they have very strict rules on sportsmanship and coaches are held accountable for the players behavior and their own. The Prep schools must make their own rules. If a team in NJSIAA got 9 techs in a game, the coach and players would be suspended or worse. The team I now coach on used to be part of a league that was so notorious for incidents that they broke the league up. By incidents, I mean, shootouts (no kidding), fights outside after games, teams needing police escorts to buses, fights inside after games. Basketball games are much safer, have that community feel again.

BktBallRef · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 28, 2004, 06:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by redoubtable1
all season. But we were a very young team. Finished 7-13, had only 2 seniors. Started an all-freshman backcourt. Knew that we would take our lumps. The only game other than this that had questionable officiating was the Prep B Final Lawrenceville v. St. Benedict's. Benedict's got called for 9 technical fouls. The asst. coach got 2 and tossed. First, for "protecting his players". Second for telling a fan to "shut the *&^% up." Then the head coach got tossed. Then the athletic director got tossed for coming out of the stands and asking the officials who was going to coach the team. The freshman coach finished up. Got them to rally too. Then JR Smith got tossed after fouling out and throwing his sneaks into the crowd. I think that was a souvenir thing though. Finally, Galindo got tossed when while waiting to shoot a free throw, he thanked the refs for officiating a terrible game.

In NJSIAA, they have very strict rules on sportsmanship and coaches are held accountable for the players behavior and their own. The Prep schools must make their own rules. If a team in NJSIAA got 9 techs in a game, the coach and players would be suspended or worse. The team I now coach on used to be part of a league that was so notorious for incidents that they broke the league up. By incidents, I mean, shootouts (no kidding), fights outside after games, teams needing police escorts to buses, fights inside after games. Basketball games are much safer, have that community feel again.

What has any of this got to do with our discussion?

But since you brought it up:

1- An asst coach has no business doing anything but coaching. I don't know what "protecting his players". is all about but an asst. coach who tells a fan to STFU should be ejected.

2- Why would an AD ask the officials who was supposed to coach the team? Is that a decision that the officials are supposed to make? My guess is that he confronted the officials, b1tching about his two coaches being tossed.

3- "I think that was a souvenir thing though." That's bull$hit and you know it.

4- "...he thanked the refs for officiating a terrible game." Oh yeah, I can't imagine why he got tossed.

Gimme a break coach. Poorly officiated? How about an out of control basketball team with no discipline, from AD down through the entire ranks. This team is an embarassment to their entire school. And if you think differently, you're not as smart as I initialed suspected.

Bart Tyson · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 28, 2004, 08:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by redoubtable1
I'm not sure but in NJ I don't think instant replay is allowed.

DUH! Of course the officials didn't look at the replay.

My question is what did the replay show? You're complaining that the call was changed, yet YOU and YOUR head coach didn't go back and look at the replay of a disputed play that was televised? Doesn't make much sense.

BTW, you're bias is showing, which effects your credibility. "I must admit almost all of the judgment calls went against us."

I have to agree, this guy has no credibility. He's talking about a play that took him "4 games to get over" and he didn't even check the game tape. This is a BS conversation. I wouldn't believe a word he says.