Question on enforcement- new series or not.

[kd0254]

Team has runs off tackle for 4 yards on 2nd and 10 from Team B's 20 yard line. After the play B92 pushes A32 from behind and A34 retailiates by shoving B92.

Two personal fouls are called and because they are dead are administered in the order of their occurence. The first will take the ball to the B8 yard line, then it will be moved back to the B23 yard line.

Does Team A get a first down here because they were ahead of the chains during the markoff.

What if the first penalty had been live ball followed by a second dead ball on the defense.

[whitehat]

Lets break it down:
Line to gain is B's 10 yard line. After the run it is now 3rd and 6 from the 16.
Dead ball fouls are always administered in the order they occur.
So, first we penalize B for their DBPF (dead ball personal foul) which takes the ball half the distance to the goal down to the 8.
Now ball is at the 8 yard line...giving A a fist down.
(this may be where you question is; can you award a first down in between DB enforcements. Answer is Yes)
Next we penalize A for their DBPF and this takes the ball back to the 23 were it will be 1st and 10 for A. Chains are not set until after the last enfrocement.

If live ball, dead ball then you enforce the live ball first, see where you are with line to gain, then enforce the dead ball foul. If the order was the same (live ball PF by B, then dead ball by A) then the results here would be the same, since the live ball PF gainst B would be enforced from the end of the run (same as succeeding spot for DB foul).

If A had fouled first then you would go back from the 16 yard line to the 31. then back down to B's 16 for B's foul. This order would in essence offset the fouls putting the ball back where is started after the play, leaving A short of the line to gain, once again 3rd and 6 from the 16.

I think that gets it, unless I missed soemthing..

[Robert Goodman]

I read recently that in at least one of the pair of codes of NCAA & Fed, that if a dead ball foul occurs before you administer a new series, you resolve the penalty before determining whether the line to gain has been reached. Which would mean no new series in the case of the 2 dead ball fouls.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I read recently that in at least one of the pair of codes of NCAA & Fed, that if a dead ball foul occurs before you administer a new series, you resolve the penalty before determining whether the line to gain has been reached. Which would mean no new series in the case of the 2 dead ball fouls.

Don't know where you read that but it's not true for NFHS.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I read recently that in at least one of the pair of codes of NCAA & Fed, that if a dead ball foul occurs before you administer a new series, you resolve the penalty before determining whether the line to gain has been reached. Which would mean no new series in the case of the 2 dead ball fouls.

You're close but no cigar.

5-1-2a...A new series of downs is awarded:

a. After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down other than nonplayer or unsportsmanlike conduct fouls by A, and any dead-ball foul by B.

[NewGaRef]

Originally Posted by whitehat

If live ball, dead ball then you enforce the live ball first, see where you are with line to gain, then enforce the dead ball foul. If the order was the same (live ball PF by B, then dead ball by A) then the results here would be the same, since the live ball PF gainst B would be enforced from the end of the run (same as succeeding spot for DB foul).

If A had fouled first then you would go back from the 16 yard line to the 31. then back down to B's 16 for B's foul. This order would in essence offset the fouls putting the ball back where is started after the play, leaving A short of the line to gain, once again 3rd and 6 from the 16.

I think that gets it, unless I missed soemthing..

If live ball was first, we would repeat 2nd down.... other than that looks good....