Holding on loose ball play

[BackJudge]

In reading the rule book on penalty enforcement, I have a question on a play.

A's ball 1st and goal at the 5 yard line. A1 drops back to pass. A5 holds at the 8 yard line. A1 passes to A2 in the endzone and it is incomplete. B accepts the penalty for holding. Is the ball marked off from the 5 or the 8?

I say the 5. A loose ball play includes the run(s) that precede it, making this a foul during a loose ball play. The basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot (in this case the 5).

I am being told by several people (including the referee of our playoff crew) that since the spot of the foul is behind the basic spot (all but one rule) you mark it off from the 8. The case book agrees with me (10.4.2B on page 77 w/comment), however rule 10-6 All but One Principle does not.

DOES ANYONE KNOW THE CORRECT ANSWER

[Zeke5]

This one of about 20 cases in the case book that either
contradict the rule book or are presented vaguely enough to
cause A LOT of confusion. The problem with case 10.4.2B is
that they never tell you where A3 commits the hold (i.e.
beyond or behind the previous spot) and this DOES MATTER.
It is explicitly stated by 10-6 (All but one) that all
penalties are enforced from the Basic spot (which is the
previous spot in this case) EXCEPT fouls by the offense
committed behind the Basic spot during running AND loose
ball plays. This is a loose ball play by rule 10.3.1D.
So it should be 1st and goal from B's 18.

The application of the All But One rule during a loose ball
play is spelled out a little clearer in case 10.4.2D. Even
though it's not a "pass" play, it is a loose ball play
nonetheless.

I hope this helps ...

[Middleman]

Originally posted by BackJudge
In reading the rule book on penalty enforcement, I have a question on a play.

A's ball 1st and goal at the 5 yard line. A1 drops back to pass. A5 holds at the 8 yard line. A1 passes to A2 in the endzone and it is incomplete. B accepts the penalty for holding. Is the ball marked off from the 5 or the 8?

I say the 5. A loose ball play includes the run(s) that precede it, making this a foul during a loose ball play. The basic spot for a loose ball play is the previous spot (in this case the 5).

I am being told by several people (including the referee of our playoff crew) that since the spot of the foul is behind the basic spot (all but one rule) you mark it off from the 8. The case book agrees with me (10.4.2B on page 77 w/comment), however rule 10-6 All but One Principle does not.

DOES ANYONE KNOW THE CORRECT ANSWER

Your playoff referee is correct. The penalty is enforced from the 8 yardline, which is the spot of the foul. A foul by the offense that occurs behind the basic spot is enforced, under the all-but-one principle, from the spot of the foul.

Reread the casebook, play 10.4.2B. Reread it carefully, because you are not grasping it. The casebook play is simply establishing that the BASIC spot is the previous spot on the loose-ball play. The point of the casebook play is that, although there is much action between the snap and the end of the play, it is all part of a single loose-ball play. Nowhere in casebook play 10.4.2B is the all-but-one principle contradicted.

You'll note that in casebook play 10.4.2B, the spot of A3's hold is never mentioned. That's because it is not germane to the point the play is illustrating. If you look at 10.4.2D(a) you'll find the casebook support for your referee's decision.