illegal substitution on the defense??

[MIcoach]

tonight we got this called on us and i am very confused as to why.

we had ten on the field defensively, at the snap, the 11th player comes on. the ref told us that he can not enter the field at the snap, it must be prior to.

in all my years of coaching i have never seen this penalty given to anyone.

i scoured the rulebook, but can not find in there were it says anything about substitution fouls. can someone enlighten me as to where it is, i would greatly appreciate it.

thanks

[LDUB]

That's not right. The foul would be illegal participation. Check out 9-6.

[JRutledge]

I cannot speak for what you have seen, but I have called this several times on the defense as a Back Judge as I am the primary on defensive substitutions.

I am sorry I do not have my rulebook, but I have my casebook. Actually based on what you have said it should have been illegal participation, not illegal substitution according to 9.6 Comment (which references 9-6-4a). Now it is possible that the official also judged more than 11 on the field at one time and the play went off. You can have a live ball substitution foul, but this does not sound like this is what it was. Then again as a coach you have never heard of the foul, so it is hard to know what really happened.

Peace

[mbyron]

The snap is instantaneous, so your player either came on before or after it. The official evidently ruled after, and applied 9-6-4:

Originally Posted by 2009 Rule Book

It is illegal participation:
a. When any player, replaced player, substitute, coach, trainer or other attendant
enters and participates during a down.

Illegal substitution is a 5 yard penalty; illegal participation is 15.

[gtwbam]

As a point of clarification and assuming the officials ruled your 11th man came on the field after the snap, the officials would have to determine if your 11th man participated and influenced the play or not.

If your 11th man did not influence or participate in the play the proper ruling would be a 5 yard illegal substitution penalty.

If your 11th man did participate or influence the play then the correct ruling would be illegal participation.

[ppaltice]

Rule 3-7-6 is the substitution infraction: During a down, a replaced player or substitute who enters the field, but does not participate, constitutes illegal substitution. (5 yard succeeding spot penalty).

[MIcoach]

thanks guys i appreciate the help.

what if the 11th guy started on the field, came off before the snap (ie. thinking there were 12 instead of 11) and then came back on. would that be a penalty also??

[whitehat]

Not a foul if he runs off. but iff he runs back on once the ball has been snapped it is a foul. Same rule cited by Mbyron above. If he stays off, no foul even if that leaves less than 11 on the field. The key is "during the down" can't have polayers running onto the field once the down (snap) begins

[MI Official]

If he came BACK in before the down it would be Illegal Substitution, dead ball. After the snap, same as before (did he or didnt he influence the play) IS or IP.

I believe that no player shall leave and enter or enter and leave after being replaced during the same dead ball situation unless a period ends, a fould is accepted or a timeout occurs.

Had this situation a few years back, when B thought a was going to kick for a try but when they lined up for a non-kicking try, all the subs ran back off. we ruled it IS live ball but was subsequently informed by our association that its a dead ball foul as soon as the replaced players come back on before the snap.