illegal forward pass (defense)

[merlin]

In the Tampa/Atlanta game there was a illegal forward pass by a defensive player. It was not complete and there was a scramble for the ball. They ruled it a fumble.

My question is.....
Is a illegal forward pass by the defense a incomplete forward pass? and should it be ruled incomplete and a dead ball?

[JRutledge]

In high school or National Federation Rules, this is treated like an incomplete pass. I believe the NFL treats it differently.

Peace

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by merlin

In the Tampa/Atlanta game there was a illegal forward pass by a defensive player. It was not complete and there was a scramble for the ball. They ruled it a fumble.

My question is.....
Is a illegal forward pass by the defense a incomplete forward pass? and should it be ruled incomplete and a dead ball?

How can the DEFENSE throw any kind of pass? As soon as 'Team B' gains posession, they are the OFFENSE.

Bob

[merlin]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

How can the DEFENSE throw any kind of pass? As soon as 'Team B' gains posession, they are the OFFENSE.

Bob

good point.
I thought it would be treated as a incomplete pass, but I was just checkng.

[OverAndBack]

I heard this on the radio and it sounded like Triplette and his crew made a mess of it.

In NFHS, a pass after team possession has changed during the down is an illegal forward pass. 7-5-5 says "A forward pass, legal or illegal, is incomplete and the ball becomes dead when the pass touches the ground or goes out of bounds.

And my NFL rulebook says: 8-1-5 "Any forward pass (legal or illegal) becomes incomplete and the ball is dead immediately if the pass strikes the ground or goes out of bounds."

The whole "who becomes offense after a turnover" and whatnot is a semantic discussion that doesn't really matter, though you could tell Triplette was a bit confused about how to word his explanation.

[merlin]

Yeah, I still have not figured out what Triplette did.
At first they screwed up which team the fouls were on and then when they got that figured out he said something about the team that recovered the ball at the end. That is where he lost me because I thought the illegal forward pass should have been incomplete.

[wwcfoa43]

Canadian Ruling

Perhaps the officials were using Canadian rules. In Canada, only forward passes intended to be thrown from behind the line of scrimmage are dead when they land incomplete. Anything else is a live ball though the pass would still be an offside pass subject to penalty.

[merlin]

OK, I saw this play twice yesterday and I have yet to see it blown dead as a incomplete forward pass.

I watched so many college games yesterday and I can't remember which games I saw it in, but I did see it twice.
I think one was the punt at the end of the Ok.St and Missouri game. Missouri was lateraling the ball trying to keep it alive and then one was forward and bounced to the next player. They dropped a flag for a illegal forward pass but they let the action go on and did not rule it a incomplete pass.

Has anybody seen this blown dead and called correctly?
I don't think I have.

[mbyron]

The play took place during a kick. Therefore, it cannot be an illegal forward pass, and would not be blown dead when incomplete (for NFHS, under 4-2-2c). Since a forward lateral is not on the list of things that makes the ball dead during a kickoff, the ball is live.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The play took place during a kick. Therefore, it cannot be an illegal forward pass, and would not be blown dead when incomplete...

????????

If the ball leaves a players hands voluntarily then it is a either a pass or a hand-off no matter how that play started. If the ball travels in flight prior to touching another player or the ground then it is a pass. If the ball does not travel forward then it is a backward pass. If the ball travels forward then it is a forward pass and can be ruled incomplete. At the college and NFL level they want to let this play go and deal with enforcements of those later just to make sure they get it all right. Letting the play go allows two outcomes. Blowing it dead only allows one whether it was correct or not.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

If the ball leaves a players hands voluntarily then it is a either a pass or a hand-off

That may be the spirit of the rule, but last I looked at all the major USAn codes that's not quite true. "Pass" was defined in terms of throwing (except in NFL, where a hand-off is a type of pass), and handing the ball is pretty self explanatory. The punt & drop kick are also defined in a way that they begin with the player's (apparently voluntarily) releasing the ball from hand or hands, and if kicking the ball is somehow prevented after a player releases the ball with that intention, it's a fumble. And there's also the possibility that a player in possession may voluntarily release the ball in some other way that doesn't satisfy the definitions of "pass" or "handing", which would make it a fumble by the way "fumble" is defined (i.e. by exclusion). For instance, a player might leave the ball on the ground for a teammate to pick up, in the manner of a "leave pass" in soccer or hockey, but that's not a "pass" by the rule book meaning in football.

I guess you could also say a place kick causes the ball to "leave a player's hand voluntarily" in the sense that he allows a teammate to kick it.

I think the game would be better served if "fumble" were defined as an involuntary loss of possession and the voluntary means of transferring possession were defined as such, which would make the intentional fumble impossible, but as it stands right now an intentional fumble is possible.

Robert

[ajmc]

Under the NFHS code, "Passing" is defined (NF:2.31.1) as, "Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a pass the ball travels in flight".

A "Fumble" is defined as (NF:2.18) as, "A fumble is the loss of player possession other than handing, passing or legal kick". There should be no rational argument, or confusion, as to whether a player's possession ends deliberately (by throwing), or unintentionally by a fumble. That is a black and white decision that must be made by the covering official.

Soccer and Hockey are both fine games and have their own language which neither translates, or relates, to football. The current rules for passing and fumbles are succinct, to the point and clear as written.

[JasonTX]

Under NCAA an incomplete illegal forward pass causes the ball to become dead. Maybe the NFL has guidelines to let the play continue and then let allow replay to have a look.