Punt Situation

[bbcof83]

I had a situation similar to case play 4.2.2 Situation G the other day: here is my version: K1's punt on fourth and 10 is from his own 20 yd line. The kick is high and short. R1 gives a valid signal beyond the neutral zone but does not attempt to catch the ball. The ball rebounds behind the neutral zone and toward the sideline where R2, realizing he has space to run. tries to pick up the ball but can't gain control. The ball is subsequently recovered by K3 at it's 15 yd line.

We ruled 1st and ten for K at the 15. However, we debated for a bit whether the point at which R2 touched the ball effects the play. Does it? Does R2's touch of the ball on the other side of the neutral zone change how this play should be dealt with?

[kdf5]

5-1-4...Unless first touched by R beyond the neutral zone, if the kickers recover a scrimmage kick in or behind the neutral zone, the ball remains live and belongs to K and the down counts.

K could have advanced the ball beyond the line to gain after their recovery and been awarded a new series but they didn't so the ball should have gone over to R at the K-15.

[bossman72]

If the ball was touched beyond the NZ by R - K's ball at the 15.

If the ball was touched behind the NZ by R (which I think happened in your play) - R's ball at the 15 since touching is ignored behind the Expanded NZ on all scrimmage kicks.

[whitehat]

I agree with bossman. should have been R's ball at 15 because ball was not touched beyond line by R. If ball was touched beyond line by R then new series is awarded to whoever has possession when down ends.

If I understand the play it is R's ball no matter what:
1. R's ball if: goes over on downs as it was 4th down and ball not touched by R beyond NZ
2. R's ball if: kick had gone out of bounds beyond or behind NZ (5-1-3e)
3. Also, if R had posseed the kick behind NZ ball would have been dead due to the FC signal (4-2-2g).

thats my take anyway...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by kdf5

5-1-4...Unless first touched by R beyond the neutral zone, if the kickers recover a scrimmage kick in or behind the neutral zone, the ball remains live and belongs to K and the down counts.

Right: imagine a blocked kick, which is touched behind the NZ. If K recovers, the down counts.

R first touching this kick after it rolls back behind the NZ counts as the same in principle.

[bigjohn]

WOW, What a ridiculously blown call.

[bbcof83]

Thanks for the help guys (minus BigJohn's useless comment). It was a soph game where K was down 48-0 with running time in the 4th quarter so luckily the call didn't affect the outcome. Also, the touching by R was very close to the neutral zone on the sideline with no official on it (3 person mechanics, LJ was back with receivers) so we didn't have a great look at where the ball was touched by R. Nonetheless, should have been R ball, glad I asked this question.

OK, same play but 5 person mechanics varsity, and the LJ gets a good look at where R touched. Say he touched very close to or at the neutral zone, it's bang bang. You are the LJ and it's totally your decision whether it is beyond or behind NZ. Which way do you lean?

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

Thanks for the help guys (minus BigJohn's useless comment). It was a soph game where K was down 48-0 with running time in the 4th quarter so luckily the call didn't affect the outcome. Also, the touching by R was very close to the neutral zone on the sideline with no official on it (3 person mechanics, LJ was back with receivers) so we didn't have a great look at where the ball was touched by R. Nonetheless, should have been R ball, glad I asked this question.

OK, same play but 5 person mechanics varsity, and the LJ gets a good look at where R touched. Say he touched very close to or at the neutral zone, it's bang bang. You are the LJ and it's totally your decision whether it is beyond or behind NZ. Which way do you lean?

I'd lean to touched behind the NZ.

[bigjohn]

provided such kick has
been touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone at the time
of touching.


Also, doesn't the LJ release in 5 man mechanics, leaving this call to the L & the U?

http://football.refs.org/mechanics/punt5.html

[bigjohn]

How is that for USEFUL comment!

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

How is that for USEFUL comment!

Better.

But the LJ would probably not stray far seeing that the punt was going to land very near the LOS.

[bigjohn]

He better!

Line Judge
Count Team B Players.
Once the ball is snapped, release and move downfield covering your side line to the deep receiver.
When it appears that the kick will be short and land inside your area of the field, you are responsible for:


Moving into position ruling on validity of catch or signal, ruling on interference
Being ready to take over runner if the return comes to your side.
Covering the runner all the way to the goal line (you have 120 yards of sideline responsibility.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

OK, same play but 5 person mechanics varsity, and the LJ gets a good look at where R touched. Say he touched very close to or at the neutral zone, it's bang bang. You are the LJ and it's totally your decision whether it is beyond or behind NZ. Which way do you lean?

Perhaps it's worth noting that such a kick would have to be very low indeed, which makes the play both unlikely and fairly easy to rule on: until the kick, the R linemen are usually moving upfield toward the kicker.

So: I agree with mikesears, and lean toward "behind the NZ."

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

Say he touched very close to or at the neutral zone, it's bang bang. You are the LJ and it's totally your decision whether it is beyond or behind NZ. Which way do you lean?

I would suggest you totally remove words like near, very close, almost, kind of, slightly and little bit from your football vocabulary. The first thing that must be determined is whether something is, or isn't.

The only thing I can think of in the rules of football that happens simultaneously is a simultaneous catch, which is clearly defined. Rules are designed to separate black from white, yes from no, is from isn't. Like the word "Pregnant" there's only is, or isn't and nothing inbetween.

[bigjohn]

+1

touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone