Declined Penalty on a play with a TD

[commish34]

We've had an issue with an official who has some conjured up idea of what happens on a play where the offense commits a foul and scores. One call was an O.T. game where a team that has the ball second scored a TD and on the PAT, they commit a hold and score. Official goes to offended team and says you want to decline this penalty so the game will be over. Offending coach goes nuts. He should have the yards marked off and replay down.

Tonight a team runs an 85 yard TD and holds on 3rd down from the 15 (hold is at 10). Official tells the defense they want to decline the penalty so it will be 4th down at the 15. I'm the League Commish and let the official know he has messed up the deal. He won't hear of it.

Anyway, I go to the Fed rules and look up 10-1-1 to find what I think is a gargled up description of a declined penalty. The guy will never understand just that explanantion. I need a reference to show him that if a penalty is declined, the play stands and we move to the next play/down/situation. Can someone provide me with a place to show that reference? Obviously one needs a much broader knowledge of the Fed rules to put the puzzle together but this guy just needs a clear reference other than "I told you so."

[Bullycon]

Rule 5-2-1 and 5-2-2 may be what you are looking for.

I doubt they'll do you any good though. You need to go to the local association that provides officials for your league. If they can't talk sense into him, at least they'll know he doesn't need to be on the field.

[ChicagoLJ]

Is he working as the WH or at a different position? If it's not the WH, it really shouldn't be his job to talk to the players regarding penalty acceptance/declining.

[jaybird]

Commish,
If he can't do any better than that and shows no inclination to improve, just let him go.

[whitehat]

This is pretty basic stuff. As R I always start my choices to the captain after a foul with this phrase: "If you decline the penalty it will be (and whatever the play result was)." Saying in essence, if you decline the penalty it is as if the foul never happened, thus the result of the play is what you are left with. In this case, if B declines, the outcome is a touchdown for A...sounds like the official has some zebra virtigo!

Rule 5-2-1 is pretty clear: "when a penalty is declined the number of the next down is the same as if the foul had not occurred."

good luck with this guy!

[commish34]

Thanks for the info. This guy is considered our lead official for our youth association. He is a State certified official and is on a varsity crew. He is not the crew's white hat. We don't have a great pool of officials to pull from in our local H.S. assoc. The good officials that are local handle all of the sub-varsity and middle school games so the youth leagues pick up the crumbs. This would be a great developmental league for young officials but around here, officiating isn't cool with the younger generation.

I gave up officiating about 2 years ago to spend more time with my family. My son had started playing youth football and I wanted to invest more time with him. I was asked to coach in a flag league and saw a need to develop flag specific rules. After some research of flag leagues around the country, I wrote up a set of rules to present to the board and current commish. The rules were implemented and they asked me to take over as commish when the former one moved on. Now I go from coach to commish and some of the officials are struggling with me giving them rule intrepretations. My son being on a team doesn't help the matter much because they think there is a bias there even though several of the items I've thrown at them were beneficial to my son's opposing team. I remember now why I got into officiating and why I put so much effort into it. I hate seeing guys out there not doing it for the right reasons and not willing to learn.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by commish34

I hate seeing guys out there not doing it for the right reasons and not willing to learn.

What are the right reasons?

I am a varsity crew chief / white hat.

I work HS football as a challenge - to improve, do a good job, get better year after year. To develop my crew and get us better as a team.

I work youth football for the dinero.

They get a full effort from me (cause I wouldn't let anyone see me give less than my all), but I derive little actual enjoyment from it with the exception of getting my check at the end of the day.

For youth football to be a good development ground, there needs to be at least one official on the field who can lead and mentor others. Or one watching and providing leadership. Most times, I see youth games run by a crew who have nobody who can lead or mentor. Or guys who have one year of experience 30 times who wouldn't listen to even the best of advice.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by commish34

We've had an issue with an official who has some conjured up idea of what happens on a play where the offense commits a foul and scores. One call was an O.T. game where a team that has the ball second scored a TD and on the PAT, they commit a hold and score. Official goes to offended team and says you want to decline this penalty so the game will be over. Offending coach goes nuts. He should have the yards marked off and replay down.

Tonight a team runs an 85 yard TD and holds on 3rd down from the 15 (hold is at 10). Official tells the defense they want to decline the penalty so it will be 4th down at the 15. I'm the League Commish and let the official know he has messed up the deal. He won't hear of it.

Anyway, I go to the Fed rules and look up 10-1-1 to find what I think is a gargled up description of a declined penalty. The guy will never understand just that explanantion. I need a reference to show him that if a penalty is declined, the play stands and we move to the next play/down/situation. Can someone provide me with a place to show that reference? Obviously one needs a much broader knowledge of the Fed rules to put the puzzle together but this guy just needs a clear reference other than "I told you so."

This works nearly every time...

When you need to correct a buffoon on the rules, call him out at the meeting (subtly, of course).

When the rules interpreter is giving his speech at each meeting, bring up those exact plays (when the guy that screwed them up is present). The rules interpreter will give the correct ruling, then you just look at the buffoon and you'll see a light go on in his head. Then when it comes up again, just say "Hey, remember what Marty said at the meeting? That's not how it's done."

Done and done.

[MrOfficialtoyou]

I also coordinate officials for a youth league. Our league uses high school aged officials, most of whom came through our program. I train them on rules and officiating mechanics, organize them into crews and assign senior officials as the crew chiefs. I provide weekly feedback on performance.

I have 56 officials (we have 8 7 man crews, and have 4 on field and 3 holding the sticks), we pay each $20 per game.

While not perfect, I always get dedication and enthusiasm.

I would encourage you to look at this option for your league if you cannot get better stte certified officials to work for you.