The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 09:26am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 79
Question Distance Penalty Declined Enforcement Spot Question

For a loose-ball play, the basic spot is the previous spot. If "A" holds behind the basic spot on a loose-ball play, the ABO + 10 yards is applied (spot of the foul +10yards). The enforcement spot is now the ABO spot & 10 yards will be marked off from there.

If "B" refuses the "distance penalty", is the succeeding spot the basic spot or the ABO (enforcement spot)?

The rules aren't clear on this (unless I am missing something). I would think that since "B" refuses the distance penalty, they also give up the ABO enforcement spot and the succeeding spot will be the basic spot.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 10:12am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Crestwood, IL
Posts: 36
It is my understanding that if B declines the penalty, the succeeding spot would be the end of the run.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 10:31am
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
Does ABO stand for Automatic Best Option?
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 10:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Crestwood, IL
Posts: 36
ABO - All-But-One
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 10:55am
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,558
Ahh...... I thought I was pretty smart for a sec there.
__________________
Pope Francis
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 11:06am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeetBallRef
For a loose-ball play, the basic spot is the previous spot. If "A" holds behind the basic spot on a loose-ball play, the ABO + 10 yards is applied (spot of the foul +10yards). The enforcement spot is now the ABO spot & 10 yards will be marked off from there.

If "B" refuses the "distance penalty", is the succeeding spot the basic spot or the ABO (enforcement spot)?

The rules aren't clear on this (unless I am missing something). I would think that since "B" refuses the distance penalty, they also give up the ABO enforcement spot and the succeeding spot will be the basic spot.
If the penalty is declined, the succeeding spot is the spot in which the ball would have been spotted absent any fouls.
Previous spot if it were an incomplete pass, end of run if it was a completed pass.
It's not an Ala Carte choice, they either accept the penalty, which includes 10 yards behind the enforcement spot and a repeat of the down or they decline the penalty and play proceeds as if there had been no penalty.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 12:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 79
CO ump, I don't think that it is a Ala Carte choice. I think when you decline the "distance penalty", you are declining the distance yardage and the ABO spot.

Another thought, the rule book uses the wording the "distance penalty" for any foul can be declined.

The enforcement philosophy is based on the fact that a team is given the advantage of the distance which is gained without assistance of a foul. It is assumed that the only foul which would give this aid is a foul by the offense behind the basic spot. Therefore, all fouls but this one, that is a foul br the offense behind the basic spot, are penalized from the basic spot unless the spot is otherwise specified by rule.

If the rule book had specified the "distance yardage" can be declined, then we could go to the ABO spot for the enforcement. Since the rule book uses "distance penalty", I assume that this includes the ABO spot and the penalty yardage.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 01:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeetBallRef

Another thought, the rule book uses the wording the "distance penalty" for any foul can be declined.

.
The distance penalty for any foul can be declined, however, if an ejection accompanies the foul that cannot be declined.
So when rule 10 refers to "distance penalty" it is simply separtating distance from other consequences.
So in all cases you either accept or decline the "distance" consequences of a foul. A team cannot decline the "distance" penalty while accepting the enforcement spot as the succeeding spot.
It's all or nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 02:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 79
Thumbs up

If we don't allow the previous spot when "B" declines the "distance penalty", "A" can get an advantage from their penalty.

"A" is kicking a field goal from "B"'s 6 yard line on the right inbounds line. "A" makes the field goal but holds in "B"'s 10 yard line. Since "A" made the field goal, "B" will want a re-kick (accept the penalty). So when "B" declines the "distance penalty" to cut down the angle of the kick, if we move the ball back to the previous (basic) spot, "A" hasn't gained an advantage for their penalty.

If we move it to the ABO spot, "A" has gained an advantage for their foul. The ABO was designed to eliminate "A" gaining an advantage for their penalty.

If the ABO spot for enforcement was designed to prevent "A" from gaining an advantage for their foul, we shouldn't allow the ABO spot to give "A" an advantage when "B" declines the "distance penalty".
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 03:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeetBallRef
If we don't allow the previous spot when "B" declines the "distance penalty", "A" can get an advantage from their penalty.

"A" is kicking a field goal from "B"'s 6 yard line on the right inbounds line. "A" makes the field goal but holds in "B"'s 10 yard line. Since "A" made the field goal, "B" will want a re-kick (accept the penalty). So when "B" declines the "distance penalty" to cut down the angle of the kick, if we move the ball back to the previous (basic) spot, "A" hasn't gained an advantage for their penalty.

If we move it to the ABO spot, "A" has gained an advantage for their foul. The ABO was designed to eliminate "A" gaining an advantage for their penalty.

If the ABO spot for enforcement was designed to prevent "A" from gaining an advantage for their foul, we shouldn't allow the ABO spot to give "A" an advantage when "B" declines the "distance penalty".

You CANNOT accept a penalty and decline the "distance" which goes with the penalty


You're confusing me with your lingo

There is no ABO spot.
ABO is an exception to the basic spot rule.
Relative to penalty enforcement you have 2 pertinent spots

Enforcement spot-The spot from where a penalty will be enforced if accepted.

Succeeding Spot-The spot from where the ball would next be snapped had a foul not occurred.

If a team accepts a penalty, the distance is measured off from the enforcement spot.
If a team declines a penalty the ball is spotted at the succeeding spot (The spot from where the ball would be had no foul occurred)

As I said before, when you accept the penalty, you accept the enforcement spot plus the prescribed distance for the penalty. You can't have one without the other.
When you decline we play on as if there had been no foul.

Last edited by CO ump; Thu Oct 11, 2007 at 03:39pm.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 04:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Clinton Township, NJ
Posts: 2,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO ump
You CANNOT accept a penalty and decline the "distance" which goes with the penalty...As I said before, when you accept the penalty, you accept the enforcement spot plus the prescribed distance for the penalty. You can't have one without the other.
When you decline we play on as if there had been no foul.
REPLY: In NCAA rules, you're correct, but you're not correct under Federation rules. In Federation rules, the offended team is most certainly allowed to accept the penalty but not have the yardage assessed. Take a look at Case Book play 10.1.1 Situation B. Yardage is the only element of a penalty that a team is allowed to decline separately. Replay of a down, loss of down, automatic first down are other elements of a penalty that cannot be declined without declining the whole penalty.
__________________
Bob M.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 11, 2007, 05:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: In NCAA rules, you're correct, but you're not correct under Federation rules. In Federation rules, the offended team is most certainly allowed to accept the penalty but not have the yardage assessed. Take a look at Case Book play 10.1.1 Situation B. Yardage is the only element of a penalty that a team is allowed to decline separately. Replay of a down, loss of down, automatic first down are other elements of a penalty that cannot be declined without declining the whole penalty.
Bob,

I don't have my case book with me, but I may be eating crow on this one.

I have never offered a penalty less distance nor have I had it requested.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 12, 2007, 09:58am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Clinton Township, NJ
Posts: 2,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO ump
...I have never offered a penalty less distance nor have I had it requested.
REPLY: ...and you probably never will. However, it is allowed by a sentence within NF 10-1-1: "The distance penalty for any foul may be declined. "
__________________
Bob M.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 12, 2007, 10:19am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: ...and you probably never will. However, it is allowed by a sentence within NF 10-1-1: "The distance penalty for any foul may be declined. "
My apologies.

I was 100% SURE I was right. Good thing it never came up.
I dang sure would of sold it hard though
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 12, 2007, 10:21am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 415
4th & goal from the 3. K kicks from the middle of the field and makes it but the right end holds at the 5 over by the right hash mark. R accepts the penalty but declines the distance. Do we have 4th & goal from the 5 at the right hash?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question on Penalty Enforcement rockyroad Football 19 Thu Oct 26, 2006 04:28pm
federation penalty enforcement question sloth Football 4 Tue Jan 24, 2006 07:06pm
penalty enforcement question jjb Football 2 Thu Sep 16, 2004 06:46am
spot of enforcement and penalty otis3zeb Football 17 Wed Aug 20, 2003 02:09pm
spot of enforcement joec Football 1 Thu Jan 11, 2001 01:40pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:21am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1