Any penalty here.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

Re: Any penalty here.

We've all seen it. Punt play. At the snap A5 and B5 engage in a legal block. A5 goes down and B5 continues pushing him back to the ground as he tries to get up.

If there is a disengagement, I'm saying this is a block in the back. If he falls on him and won't let him up do we have a hold? No call?

CANADIAN PHILOSOPHY:

There could be a foul here, which would carry a penalty.

Yes, falling a player and not letting them get up is holding.

Yes, after the disengagement, you could have a block in the back, although we are liberal about blocks away from the play/ball. We have two different Blocks In The Back. The 10 yarder is for tactical reasons and is flagged if the block happens at the point of attack, and the 15 yarder is flagged for safety reasons, and is "almost always" flagged.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

CANADIAN PHILOSOPHY:

There could be a foul here, which would carry a penalty.

Yes, falling on a player and not letting them get up is holding.

Even without use of the hands or arms?

[Niner]

So.......a fat guy falls on an opponent and won't spring up, it's a foul? You didn't mention "holding him down" just reclining on him.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Niner

So.......a fat guy falls on an opponent and won't spring up, it's a foul? You didn't mention "holding him down" just reclining on him.

Skinny guys can improperly impede an opponent also. The answer to your question is totally dependent on what YOU see.

If you believe that what you are looking at is a player, "Use(ing) his hands, arms or legs to hook, lock, clamp, grasp, encircle or hold in an effort to restrain an opponent." (NF:9-2-1c or 3c) and it provides an unfair advantage to the player initiating the action, you have a foul. If you don't think that's the case, or there isn't any unfair advantage being gained, it's likely not a foul.

That's a judgment YOU have to make based on what YOU see.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Even without use of the hands or arms?

Of course. I don't believe there was ever an intent to allow for people to sit on their opponents.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Of course. I don't believe there was ever an intent to allow for people to sit on their opponents.

And I believe there was and is. You pancake an opponent, you've won the battle for that down, you're allowed to occupy the territory, as long as the form of contact you use is legal. What's the alternative? As soon as the opponent gets off the ground, you knock him down again? Do you have to let him fully regain his balance after getting off the ground?

Robert

[ppaltice]

I think Alf has the best answer. It may be a foul that should be penalized, it depends. Most of the time, this is not affecting the play, unsportsmanlike or a safety issue, so I would think the official (U or R probably) would choost to talk to the players over penalizing them.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

I think Alf has the best answer. It may be a foul that should be penalized, it depends. Most of the time, this is not affecting the play, unsportsmanlike or a safety issue, so I would think the official (U or R probably) would choost to talk to the players over penalizing them.

What's to even talk about?

Punt play. At the snap A5 and B5 engage in a legal block. A5 goes down and B5 continues pushing him back to the ground as he tries to get up.

The original poster then mentioned "block in the back", but that wasn't part of the description above. If B5's assignment is to keep A5 from making a tackle -- and considering how much time a punt runback can take, it can't be assumed A5 could no longer affect the play if he could escape the block, and if B5's use of the hands is legal, who's to say the action can't continue while the players are on the ground? A5, by continuing to try to get up, is still in the game, and where does it say B5 has to release his block and let A5 get up?

On the contrary, if B5 seemed to allow A5 to get up and then pushed him back down, that might be UR (B5 might've just changed his mind about releasing the block). If B5 in his own process of getting up (live ball or dead) gave A5 an extra shove, that would be UR. If B5 while getting up pushed off A5 just incidentally, that would not be UR. If A5's dignity was affronted and he wanted to make something of it, it might just be that he was responding in frustration to being beaten rather than being fouled, so don't let A5's rxn decide whether B5's action was legal.

Robert

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What's to even talk about?

You're comparing apples and oranges.

In your case play, A is being legally blocked while trying to get back into the play. In the case of a player laying on another player keeping him pinned to the ground, I have the player encircling with his arms and/or legs in an effort to restrain his opponent.

Normally, it will not be at the point of attack and as a result gets a verbal warning from me.