Penalty or not?????

[Illini_Ref]

A1, a WR, is running a down and out route. As he runs downfield and BEFORE the pass is thrown, B1, who is defending A1, stops. A1 continues his route, runs into B1, pushes him down, catches the ball and scores. Any call here???

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

A1, a WR, is running a down and out route. As he runs downfield and BEFORE/AFTER the pass is thrown, B1, who is defending A1, stops. A1 continues his route, runs into B1, pushes him down, catches the ball and scores. Any call here???

CANADIAN RULING:

Illegal Contact on an Eligible Receiver/Pass Interference on A1. 10/15 yards from PLS, DR.

[BktBallRef]

If the WR sees the DB and pushes him, I have a flag.

If the DB is trying to draw a charge, I've got nothing.

[Illini_Ref]

That was my take on it also. This play was explained to me this morning, I didn't actually see it. The play was called OPI which is wrong if the pass hadn't been thrown. I probably go with holding on A1 if he had plenty of room to avoid the defender.

I don't think many people know that the defender is an eligible receiver also!

[dumbref]

NF - This one can be tough and the reason you must see the whole play. If A initiated the contact, that one is easy - OPI.

But, if I determine B1’s stop caused the initial contact or A does not have time to avoid the contact, I am going to give A some leeway to get away from the defender, certainly not to the point of pushing the defender to the ground or to create separation. But if B initiated the contact (and I am assuming A is still a potential blocker), then trips and falls - I have nothing.

I can visualize this play several ways.

[JRutledge]

I have to disagree with Tony on this. The defense cannot cut off the route of receiver on purpose. Now the question is if you feel it is on purpose or the players just ran into each other. It really is one of those situations that you would have to ultimately see, but I feel you could have a penalty in that situation.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by dumbref

NF - This one can be tough and the reason you must see the whole play. If A initiated the contact, that one is easy - OPI.

But, if I determine B1’s stop caused the initial contact or A does not have time to avoid the contact, I am going to give A some leeway to get away from the defender, certainly not to the point of pushing the defender to the ground or to create separation. But if B initiated the contact (and I am assuming A is still a potential blocker), then trips and falls - I have nothing.

I can visualize this play several ways.

So, in other words, if the play happened as in the OP, you have OPI.

But if it happened some other way, you likely have something other than OPI.

Also, we must see every play in its entirety.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

That was my take on it also. This play was explained to me this morning, I didn't actually see it. The play was called OPI which is wrong if the pass hadn't been thrown. I probably go with holding on A1 if he had plenty of room to avoid the defender.

I don't think many people know that the defender is an eligible receiver also!

Why is there no such animal as illegal contact by the offense?

If defenders are eligible, as you remind us, then doesn't IC seem like the logical foul? A1 didn't hold B1 at all - he knocked him down! On the LS, that isn't a hold. On a COP, it isn't a hold. Behind the LS, it isn't a hold. So why is it a hold here?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Why is there no such animal as illegal contact by the offense?

If defenders are eligible, as you remind us, then doesn't IC seem like the logical foul? A1 didn't hold B1 at all - he knocked him down! On the LS, that isn't a hold. On a COP, it isn't a hold. Behind the LS, it isn't a hold. So why is it a hold here?

Passing restrictions for the defense and offense do not start at the same time. And illegal contact is not the kind of foul you can call at the NF level (probably NCAA, but I am not 100% sure of that).

Peace

[Illini_Ref]

Holding is the call for illegal contact with an eligible receiver BEFORE the pass is thrown.

Would this not be a case of offensive holding if the defender gave plenty of room to the receiver and defensive holding if he cut the route off?????

Maybe the defender tried to cut off the route (penalty) and the receiver pushed off as a reaction to the contact.

[JRutledge]

Actually it is illegal use of hands to block or displace a "receiver" running their route by the defense. Holding would apply to holding just like any other time. If you have a push off or action by the offense while trying to run a route, then you have OPI if the pass is thrown.

Peace

[Illini_Ref]

Correct. My bad. I was visualizing the signal, which is the same as holding.

BTW, when do you feel an offensive playaer is no longer a potential blocker? I say that as long as the defender stays in front of the receiver and the receiver is not running in an oblique manner, then he is fine to contact the receiver as he is still a potential blocker.

In my case originally, when do the offensive restrictions start for OPI? I don't have my book with me right now.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

BTW, when do you feel an offensive playaer is no longer a potential blocker? I say that as long as the defender stays in front of the receiver and the receiver is not running in an oblique manner, then he is fine to contact the receiver as he is still a potential blocker.

When the offensive player is no longer a potential blocker. In other words when it is clear they are running a route and not attacking the defensive player. I tend to give the defense some leeway, but not leeway that allows them to just run over a receiver. Complete judgment call and you have to see it to know when it takes place.

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

In my case originally, when do the offensive restrictions start for OPI? I don't have my book with me right now.

Restrictions for the offense begin at the snap.

Peace

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have to disagree with Tony on this. The defense cannot cut off the route of receiver on purpose. Now the question is if you feel it is on purpose or the players just ran into each other. It really is one of those situations that you would have to ultimately see, but I feel you could have a penalty in that situation.

Peace

How can you have DPI if the ball is not in the air?

[Illini_Ref]

Restrictions for the OFFENSE start at the snap. Restrictions for the DEFENSE with the pass.

I assume this is because the offense should know it is a pass play at the snap, while the defense wouldn't know until the pass was thrown.