9-4-3k Horse collar

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by phansen

B1 has grasped the inside back of runner A1's collar (horse collar) A1 pulls B1 across the plane of the goal line for a TD and then is horse collared by B1 in the same motion.

CANADIAN RULING:

Horse collar. Touchdown. A's choice: move the convert from the B-5 to the B-1 or the kick-off from the A-45 to the B-50.

Originally Posted by phansen

B1 has grasped the inside back of runner A1's collar (horse collar) in the field of play and is attempting to make the horse collar tackle. At the same time B2 and B3 tackle runner A1 from the front of A1 and make the tackle of A1 in the direction of B1's pull. I would be hard pressed to call this a horse collar although it meets the requirements.

CANADIAN RULING:

Horse collar. Add 15 yards to the end of the run, or PLS if the end of run is behind LS. AFD in either case.

[ChuckB DuckY]

I don’t have many examples of legal use of HC to differentiate from HCT personal foul.

Notes:

9-4-3k (NEW): The horse-collar tackle has been added to the list of illegal personal contact fouls, regardless of where it occurs on the field.
It is illegal to grasp the inside back or side opening of the collar of the jersey or shoulder pads of the runner and subsequently pull the runner to the ground.

Mbyron:
“1. Let's be careful: a horse collar (grabbing the side or back of the jersey or pads) is NOT illegal. A horse collar tackle is always a foul, wherever it occurs on the field (according to the note on p. 86 of the 2009 rule book)…
(a) B grasps the back or side collar of A's jersey or shoulder pads, and (b) subsequently brings A [backwards] to the ground.”

Situation:
B1 grabs A1, from the side, by the collar with one hand and immediately grabs the waist or chest with the other hand.

According to NFHS can HCT be called?
1) If B1 pulls A1 immediately forward and down
2) If B1 pulls A1 laterally (not down) pivoting/spinning around B1 (initially forward until the spin changes A1s direction backward) and then pulls A1 down and back (A1 is facing backward or his end zone, but is pulled down from behind, but now has not been ‘running’ since his momentum was stopped by B1 and has essentially been a passenger of B1’s spin.
3) B1 spins A1 around and throws A1 back and to the ground violently using A1s momentum against him. Diff PF?
4) B1 pulls A1 immediately forward down and to the side

Answers and explanations would help me clarify this for people more confidently. Thank you in advance.

[VALJ]

Originally Posted by ChuckB DuckY

Situation:
B1 grabs A1, from the side, by the collar with one hand and immediately grabs the waist or chest with the other hand.

According to NFHS can HCT be called?
1) If B1 pulls A1 immediately forward and down
2) If B1 pulls A1 laterally (not down) pivoting/spinning around B1 (initially forward until the spin changes A1s direction backward) and then pulls A1 down and back (A1 is facing backward or his end zone, but is pulled down from behind, but now has not been ‘running’ since his momentum was stopped by B1 and has essentially been a passenger of B1’s spin.
3) B1 spins A1 around and throws A1 back and to the ground violently using A1s momentum against him. Diff PF?
4) B1 pulls A1 immediately forward down and to the side

The two things you need to look at it are this:

1. Was the back or side of the collar grabbed? If the defender grabs the font collar, that's not a foul.

2. What was the "force" (for lack of a better term) of the tackle? A HC is a player being pulled down by the shoulder pads or the collar; merely grabbing the collar doesn't automatically mean we've got a flag. The pull can be backwards or sideways, and it doesn't matter which direction the runner is facing or going at the time.

If B1 grabs the collar, but then wraps up with the other arm and "rides" the runner down, the HC really wasn't the force of the tackle, so it's not likely that I've got a foul. Likewise, if B1 grabs the runner by the collar, but then B2 comes in and actually makes the tackle, I've got nothing - B2 is the one who made the tackle.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ChuckB DuckY

According to NFHS can HCT be called?
1) If B1 pulls A1 immediately forward and down
2) If B1 pulls A1 laterally (not down) pivoting/spinning around B1 (initially forward until the spin changes A1s direction backward) and then pulls A1 down and back (A1 is facing backward or his end zone, but is pulled down from behind, but now has not been ‘running’ since his momentum was stopped by B1 and has essentially been a passenger of B1’s spin.
3) B1 spins A1 around and throws A1 back and to the ground violently using A1s momentum against him. Diff PF?
4) B1 pulls A1 immediately forward down and to the side

You'd think that if they wanted to penalize only those actions that endangered A1's knees, that they wouldn't want any of those to be penalized as HCT. I could see some cases of 2 & 3 being UR if there was a less violent way for B1 to effect the tackle.

Robert