PKS brain freeze

[cdoug]

I'm currently having a brain freeze for PSK items. I've looked in the books and can't find the spot that deals with PSK and its fouls. Probably lack of sleep is the issue, but could someone give me the rule number, please?

[mbyron]

Definition: 2-16-2h
Post-scrimmage kick — a foul by R (other than illegal substitution or participation)
when the foul occurs:
1. During scrimmage kick plays, other than a try or successful field goal.
2. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded
neutral zone.
3. Beyond the expanded neutral zone.
4. Before the end of a kick.
5. And K will not be next to put the ball in play.

Basic spot: 10-4-3
The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R commits a
post-scrimmage kick foul (2-16-2h). R fouls behind the post-scrimmage kick
spot are spot fouls.

All but one applies to PSK: 2-41-6
The post-scrimmage kick spot is the spot where the kick ends. R
retains the ball after penalty enforcement from the post-scrimmage kick spot
when a post-scrimmage foul occurs. Fouls by R behind the post-scrimmage kick
spot are spot fouls.

[kfo9494]

Guy above did much better job than I could have done.

But the case book in rule 10 has some plays. 10.2.1 Situation D then over to 10.4.3 many plays.

[cdoug]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Definition: 2-16-2h
Post-scrimmage kick — a foul by R (other than illegal substitution or participation)
when the foul occurs:
1. During scrimmage kick plays, other than a try or successful field goal.
2. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded
neutral zone.
3. Beyond the expanded neutral zone.
4. Before the end of a kick.
5. And K will not be next to put the ball in play.

Basic spot: 10-4-3
The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R commits a
post-scrimmage kick foul (2-16-2h). R fouls behind the post-scrimmage kick
spot are spot fouls.

All but one applies to PSK: 2-41-6
The post-scrimmage kick spot is the spot where the kick ends. R
retains the ball after penalty enforcement from the post-scrimmage kick spot
when a post-scrimmage foul occurs. Fouls by R behind the post-scrimmage kick
spot are spot fouls.

Excellent! Thanks. I was looking at rule 2 but didn't go toward the front of the book far enough since I was thinking that it would be under scrimmage kicks and not fouls.

[Robert Goodman]

For those reading the RTP enforcement spot thread:

Originally Posted by mbyron

Definition: 2-16-2h
Post-scrimmage kick — a foul by R (other than illegal substitution or participation)
when the foul occurs:
1. During scrimmage kick plays, other than a try or successful field goal.
2. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded
neutral zone.
3. Beyond the expanded neutral zone.
4. Before the end of a kick.
5. And K will not be next to put the ball in play.

Notice how condition #2 is written in the indefinite present, conditional tense, "crosses", rather than "crossed", or even worse "has crossed", which would have raised the question of when that had to have occurred in relation to the foul.

Robert

[ppaltice]

When PSK fouls were first introduced in NF, the foul by R had to occur during the kick. They changed it so that the foul can occur at any time leading up to and including the kick.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

When PSK fouls were first introduced in NF, the foul by R had to occur during the kick. They changed it so that the foul can occur at any time leading up to and including the kick.

The result is that on a punt/pass option play, if B commits illegal use of hands on A1 downfield, and A2, not realizing that's why the potential receiver isn't where he expects, punts the ball instead of passing, team A gets screwed out of the right to repeat the down, or maybe a first down.

Robert

[ppaltice]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

The result is that on a punt/pass option play, if B commits illegal use of hands on A1 downfield, and A2, not realizing that's why the potential receiver isn't where he expects, punts the ball instead of passing, team A gets screwed out of the right to repeat the down, or maybe a first down.

Robert

I agree, but that is the rule. Look at Case 10.4.3G. Almost identical to what you are saying (except with a hold down field).

As a BJ during the initial wording (PSK only during the kick), it was difficult to determine sometimes if the foul occured prior to the kick or during the kick. The current wording makes it much easier to officiate.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

I agree, but that is the rule. Look at Case 10.4.3G. Almost identical to what you are saying (except with a hold down field).

As a BJ during the initial wording (PSK only during the kick), it was difficult to determine sometimes if the foul occured prior to the kick or during the kick. The current wording makes it much easier to officiate.

And 99% of the time, the punter will not look for a receiver getting held and decide to punt the ball. You don't complicate a rule to allow for something that happens so rarely.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

And 99% of the time, the punter will not look for a receiver getting held and decide to punt the ball. You don't complicate a rule to allow for something that happens so rarely.

It wasn't a matter of complicating an existing rule, but changing a previously existing one to eliminate the timing call mentioned by ppaltice -- although the thud of the foot on the ball has frequently been used as a time mark. I would think it'd be easier to rule on whether illegal use of hands by B took place before or after a ball was kicked than whether contact with a potential receiver was before or after a pass was released in that direction, because there's no sound when a pass is thrown. I also think the recent popularity of the running punt will present more "punt or pass optional" situations.

I can think of a couple of examples where Fed has altered a rule because the play situation was so rarely seen, they were afraid officials would err. One was when they banned kicks following CoP. The other, more recent, was banning forward passes following the 1st during a down. It was Fed that introduced multiple forward passes ca. 1940, starting with NCAA's rule that had never allowed the 2nd pass. The irony is that by having to rule on whether an initial pass was forward, they've given the officials more opp'ty to err.

But Fed hasn't applied the logic of rare plays to the free kick from a fair catch, which NCAA eliminated in 1950. Probably the thinking is since that's just another way to put the ball in play, it doesn't present officials with an unusual live ball situation.

Robert

[bossman72]

Casebook page 91 has a bunch of PSK situations