Legal?

[Rich]

I only watched it once.

If the hand is on the ground, it's not hurdling. Lots of twisted logic above in this thread, but "only" means "only". If the hand is on the ground then "only the feet" is not true.

It looks like the guy stepped on the back on the snapper, which should be RTS. Half the distance and retry.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If the hand is on the ground, it's not hurdling. Lots of twisted logic above in this thread, but "only" means "only". If the hand is on the ground then "only the feet" is not true.

That's what I'd been writing, but somebody in the thread was making my head spin when he wrote otherwise, and then was ostensibly backed up by others who actually contradicted him but didn't acknowledge so!

It looks like the guy stepped on the back on the snapper, which should be RTS.

I don't see how that's roughing the snapper any more than by a rusher who in trying to penetrate the A gap makes incidental contact with the snapper. Or even more than incidental, if it's an attempt to get around him rather than to run thru him or shake him up, as implied by Fed's "charge directly into" wording.

Robert

[Warrenkicker]

I don't have hurdling. The snapper had at least one hand on the ground and possibly both. That excludes this action from the rule.

I also did not see any contact between the jumper's foot and the snapper. There may have possibly been a touch but the jumper did not gain elevation at or after the contact and the snapper was not forced down toward the ground at the same instant. If you stepped on someone there would be a visible result of that contact and I saw none. I think this was more of a "Michael Jordan" move where the foot paused in mid-air while the body passed over it.

This type of block doesn't work that often as it is very difficult to time it up that well and the jumper is quite vulnerable in the air.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

That's what I'd been writing, but somebody in the thread was making my head spin when he wrote otherwise, and then was ostensibly backed up by others who actually contradicted him but didn't acknowledge so!


I don't see how that's roughing the snapper any more than by a rusher who in trying to penetrate the A gap makes incidental contact with the snapper. Or even more than incidental, if it's an attempt to get around him rather than to run thru him or shake him up, as implied by Fed's "charge directly into" wording.

Robert

I'm really ambivalent about flagging this for RTS, but I'm also looking at the spirit and intent of the rule.

The snapper is protected because he's not in a position to protect himself. If a 200+ pound linebacker is stepping in the middle of his back, isn't this something we should be protecting the snapper from?

I understand why this wasn't flagged, though. From the video, it's hard to tell if he just went clean over the top or not. And if it was clean, it was *not* hurdling as the snapper's hand was on the ground. We agree on that.

[bigjohn]

I think if you see this live you should call it hurdling though based on the intent of the hurdling rule. The only reason the snappers hand is on the ground is to steady himself as someone is stepping on his back!

[waltjp]

I'll call this hurdling every time I see it.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm really ambivalent about flagging this for RTS, but I'm also looking at the spirit and intent of the rule.

The snapper is protected because he's not in a position to protect himself. If a 200+ pound linebacker is stepping in the middle of his back, isn't this something we should be protecting the snapper from?

Maybe, but I don't think that was the intent of the RTS provision. It was installed to counter the intimidation factor of teams that would sacrifice some of their rush just to make the snapper think he has to protect himself against something he can't see, and therefore he'll hurry the snap, or snap with his head up or raising it too soon, and not have good form. Since being stepped on the back of was never part of that intimidation factor, it would take a separate rule to outlaw. Even if the snapper had his head up, there's nothing he could do about being stepped on, so the threat of it wouldn't mess up his form. A rusher who timed the snap perfectly could do the same even to a snapper in regular formation -- or for that matter any other OL in 3- or 4-pt.

Seems to outlaw this danger the simplest thing would be to amend the definition of hurdling to include a snapper who hadn't had time to get out of a 3- or 4-pt. stance. But then why just the snapper?

Robert

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Maybe, but I don't think that was the intent of the RTS provision. It was installed to counter the intimidation factor of teams that would sacrifice some of their rush just to make the snapper think he has to protect himself against something he can't see, and therefore he'll hurry the snap, or snap with his head up or raising it too soon, and not have good form.

A snapper should be coming up to block and defend himself as soon as the snap is away. He has some time to defend himself but only enough to actually defend himself.

The rule protects the snapper because he is vulnerable. I think this fits within the spirt of roughing the snapper.

[svm1010]

Becareful with an RTS call.

There is a big difference between a hurdling call (15 yards) and a RTS call (15 Yards + Automatic 1st down)

to summarize:
Hurdling = going over
RTS = Charging into.

[Welpe]

I understand the difference. I'm not talking about hurdling per se, I'm talking about putting a player putting a foot and his weight on the back of a vulnerable snapper.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by svm1010

to summarize:
Hurdling = going over
RTS = Charging into.

There's an easier way to distinguish:

hurdling: no touching
RTS: touching

[Rich]

Originally Posted by svm1010

Becareful with an RTS call.

There is a big difference between a hurdling call (15 yards) and a RTS call (15 Yards + Automatic 1st down)

to summarize:
Hurdling = going over
RTS = Charging into.

Except if the snapper's hand is on the ground, this cannot be hurdling. See: definition of hurdling.