Legal?

[bigjohn]

YouTube - Greatest Blocked Kick Ever!

[TXMike]

NCAA - No foul

[bigjohn]

I understand that but I am asking based on NFHS rules.

By rule it is not hurdling because the snappers hand is on the ground. That is why I tell our snappers to vary the pause for extra points. Most teams will tim up the snap. If the defender stepped on the center, is it a foul?

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

I understand that but I am asking based on NFHS rules.

By rule it is not hurdling because the snappers hand is on the ground. That is why I tell our snappers to vary the pause for extra points. Most teams will tim up the snap. If the defender stepped on the center, is it a foul?

Sounds like a UNS for leverage to me... but I'm very green to football officiating (first year)

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

I understand that but I am asking based on NFHS rules.

By rule it is not hurdling because the snappers hand is on the ground. That is why I tell our snappers to vary the pause for extra points. Most teams will tim up the snap. If the defender stepped on the center, is it a foul?

First question, why is this not hurdling:

NFHS 2-22 Hurdling is an attempt by a player to jump (hurdle) with one or both feet or knees foremost over an opponent who is contacting the ground with no part of his body except one or both feet.

The snapper is contacting the ground with, at least, his feet.

Second, the snapper still cannot be contacted.

Fifteen yard personal foul for hurdling.

Oh yeah, no unsportsmanlike conduct as there is contact. Unsportsmanlike conduct is reserved for non-contact misbehavior.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

NFHS 2-22 Hurdling is an attempt by a player to jump (hurdle) with one or both feet or knees foremost over an opponent who is contacting the ground with no part of his body except one or both feet.

The snapper is contacting the ground with, at least, his feet.

How is that relevant? It's "no...except", not "at least".

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

How is that relevant? It's "no...except", not "at least".

Go back to bigjohn's quote:

"By rule it is not hurdling because the snappers hand is on the ground. That is why I tell our snappers to vary the pause for extra points. Most teams will tim up the snap. If the defender stepped on the center, is it a foul?"

which implies if the snapper has his hand on the ground you cannot hurdle him. You cannot hurdle a player if the player is in the air but if a player is on the ground it is hurdling (is feet are on the ground).

[ref1986]

Right as usual, Ed. If a player is lying on the ground, he probably has both feet on the ground. No way that's hurdling.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by ref1986

Right as usual, Ed. If a player is lying on the ground, he probably has both feet on the ground. No way that's hurdling.

Ref, true, lying on the ground and you step, jump, hop, whatever, over him you are not hurdling. Not the case here.

[With_Two_Flakes]

The more I watch it, the more it looks like he puts a hand on a teammates shoulder and also steps onto the snappers back (there is a little stutter step as he goes over the snapper).

So if this was an NCAA Rules game.
It looks like he puts his hand on a teammates shoulder to get a little extra leverage? Can't do that: 9-3-5-b-2
It looks like possibly one of his feet is on the snapper's back as he jumps over?
9-1-2-q says "no player may step, jump or stand on an opponent. No defensive player.........may land on any player(s)."
9-1-2-r says " a defensive player may not initiate contact with the snapper until one second..." A foot on his back sounds like contact to me.


If this is a NFHS game.
9-4-3-e "No player shall position himself on the shoulders or body of a teammate or opponent to gain an advantage."
Exclusively NCAA Rules here in Europe so I only get to work Fed Rules on occasional trips to the USA. Could / should 9-4-3-e be interpreted to cover what the kid does on this film?

As for both the NCAA and Fed definitions of hurdling, I wonder what the intent of those Rules Ctte's really was when they wrote those words.

Interesting that the NCAA definition says "over an opponent who is still on his feet". I could easily take that to mean a player who has not yet fallen over. I could easily regard someone still in a 3 point stance moments after the snap to be "still on his feet and not yet fallen over".

[TXMike]

I do not have the same quality video player as BigJ but what I saw was the jumper tapping a teammate on the shoulder after he was already over the line and past it. That is NOT using a teammate to gain leverage to gain height. I also do not see the jumper stepping on the snapper.


NCAA - A player in a 3 point stance is NOT still on his feet by definition as that requires he have nothing except a foot or feet touching the ground In a 3 point stance he has a hand on the ground so he is not "on his feet"

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

Interesting that the NCAA definition says "over an opponent who is still on his feet". I could easily take that to mean a player who has not yet fallen over. I could easily regard someone still in a 3 point stance moments after the snap to be "still on his feet and not yet fallen over".

NCAA has defined still "on his feet" on 2-14-1-b. "On his feet" means that no other part of the opponent's body other than one or both feet is in contact with the ground.

What that means is that if the oppenent has a hand on the ground then it would not be hurdling since there is another part of his body contacting the ground.

[Ed Hickland]

Think there is one thing everyone can agree, there is a personal foul here. At the 17 second mark it looks as though he vaults himself in the air by stepping on the back of the snapper. His contact with a teammate is slight or incidential.

For us NFHS types we have a choice of roughing the snapper, or, hurdling. Since roughing the snapper has an automatic first down that would be my call.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Sounds like a UNS for leverage to me... but I'm very green to football officiating (first year)

There isn't a prohibition against "leveraging" in NFHS rules. It isn't even defined in NFHS rules.

The B player may have put his foot on the back of the snapper, but I'm not really sure that he did. If he did, I agree with Ed on ruling roughing the snapper. It appears the snapper doesn't have a hand on the ground when he is hurdled, therefore I believe we have a hurdling foul if the team B player doesn't make contact with the snapper.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in NFHS rules, hurdling is the only personal foul that does not require contact for there to be a foul.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

Ref, true, lying on the ground and you step, jump, hop, whatever, over him you are not hurdling. Not the case here.

Then why did you write that he had at least his feet on the ground? That was irrelevant.