legal or not

[xxssmen]

1) Player A1 comes down on a fast break and try to pass it to A2,while passing it, it miss player A2 and hit an official so is it legal for A1 to recover the pass before it has touch any other players and continue dribling?

2)How about if player A1 pass to what he thought was a teammate and realized it was not and try to hold back the pass but it sliped out, can A1 be the first to recover it before it touches anyone else?

[mthomas]

Originally posted by xxssmen
1) Player A1 comes down on a fast break and try to pass it to A2,while passing it, it miss player A2 and hit an official so is it legal for A1 to recover the pass before it has touch any other players and continue dribling?

2)How about if player A1 pass to what he thought was a teammate and realized it was not and try to hold back the pass but it sliped out, can A1 be the first to recover it before it touches anyone else?

1) The pass that hits the official is the same as the ball hitting the floor. A1 can recover the pass, but can not dribble the ball, this would be a double dribble violation.

(Page 22, casebook, 4.4.4 Situation)

2) Yes A1 CAN recover the ball and touch it before anyone else. This would fall under the "fumble" category.

(Page 33, rules book, section 21) "A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips froam a player's grasp."

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by xxssmen
1) Player A1 comes down on a fast break and try to pass it to A2,while passing it, it miss player A2 and hit an official so is it legal for A1 to recover the pass before it has touch any other players and continue dribling?

If A1 has already dribbled, then it's a double dribble to recover the ball. If A1 hasn't already dribbled, then A1 can recover the ball.

2)How about if player A1 pass to what he thought was a teammate and realized it was not and try to hold back the pass but it sliped out, can A1 be the first to recover it before it touches anyone else?

The official must judge whether this was a pass (see ruling 1) or a fumble. IT's legal to recover a fumble.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

If A1 has already dribbled, then it's a double dribble to recover the ball. If A1 hasn't already dribbled, then A1 can recover the ball.

Bob -- I have some questions. Are we assuming that this is a two handed pass? Dribble, two-hand pass, no recovery allowed? I thought recovery was allowed, but not another dribble.

Also, if he could recover by a continued dribble, with one hand only, would that be legal?

[footlocker]

Rainmaker, that was my thought on the issue for situation 1. If this is a one-handed pass (where he did not end his dribble first), he can recover the ball off of the official and continue the dribble. If he recovers the ball off of the official by grasping it, that would effectively end his dribble and he cannot dribble again. If he recovers the ball by pushing it back to the floor there is no violation.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by footlocker
Rainmaker, that was my thought on the issue for situation 1. If this is a one-handed pass (where he did not end his dribble first), he can recover the ball off of the official and continue the dribble. If he recovers the ball off of the official by grasping it, that would effectively end his dribble and he cannot dribble again. If he recovers the ball by pushing it back to the floor there is no violation.

Okay, I understand that. But if he ended the dribble with a two-handed pass and it hit the ref, that's not a fumble, so he can't recover?

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by footlocker
Rainmaker, that was my thought on the issue for situation 1. If this is a one-handed pass (where he did not end his dribble first), he can recover the ball off of the official and continue the dribble. If he recovers the ball off of the official by grasping it, that would effectively end his dribble and he cannot dribble again. If he recovers the ball by pushing it back to the floor there is no violation.

If it is a one-handed bounce pass, I can see what you are saying. If it is a one handed pass that stays in the air, this would be a carry if he recoverd the ball, or simply a double dribble.

[footlocker]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

If A1 has already dribbled, then it's a double dribble to recover the ball. If A1 hasn't already dribbled, then A1 can recover the ball.

Rainmaker, here is your answer to that question.
Hawks Coach, I concur. Almost anyway. If it is a one-handed pass that hits the official airborne then the same player gets to the ball before it touches the floor, this player my push the ball to the floor and continue a dribble. (Remember, hitting the official is like hitting the floor.)

That being said, I’m not sure I would get this 100% right. It’s a weird situation that is worth staying out of the way to avoid.


[Edited by footlocker on Mar 10th, 2004 at 12:59 PM]

[just another ref]

Originally posted by footlocker
If it is a one-handed pass that hits the official airborne then the same player gets to the ball before it touches the floor, this player my push the ball to the floor and continue a dribble. (Remember, hitting the official is like hitting the floor.)

After it hits the official, why does it matter whether it hits the floor or not?

[Hawks Coach]

It doesn't, in my estimation. I was just saying that if it wasn't a bounce pass, it isn't a downward push, and therefore would either be a carry or a double dribble if A1 were to atempt to continue to dribble. If the pass was a one handed bounce pass, I would say it could be considered a legal continuation of a dribble if it hit the official.

[xxssmen]

It seem that am getting different answer here, am still confuseed whether its legal or not, I understand the fumble rule but still am lost situation #1.

Let me try to make it more simple, Player A1 drible down the court does a 2 hand chest pass to player A2 but instead it hit an official and comes back to player A1, so can player A1 recover the ball before it is touch by another player.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by xxssmen
It seem that am getting different answer here, am still confuseed whether its legal or not, I understand the fumble rule but still am lost situation #1.

Let me try to make it more simple, Player A1 drible down the court does a 2 hand chest pass to player A2 but instead it hit an official and comes back to player A1, so can player A1 recover the ball before it is touch by another player.

No, this would be a double dribble. casebook 4.15.4 Sit. C

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by xxssmen
It seem that am getting different answer here, am still confuseed whether its legal or not, I understand the fumble rule but still am lost situation #1.

Let me try to make it more simple, Player A1 drible down the court does a 2 hand chest pass to player A2 but instead it hit an official and comes back to player A1, so can player A1 recover the ball before it is touch by another player.

NO. Explanation: When A1 touches the ball with 2 hands to pass the ball, this ends his dribble. He then throws the ball off the official, which is considered the same as hitting the floor at that spot. This action meets the definition of a dribble (4-15-1) "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."
Therefore, if A1 goes over and touches the ball again, before anyone else does, it is a double dribble violation.

What some others have told you, which may have caused the confusion, is that A1 could also end his dribble with only one hand. (See 4-15-4a) This would be a judgment call by the official. (Whereas touching the ball with two hands takes all the judgment out of the call; it is a hard and fast rule. (4-15-4c) The dribble has ended.) If the official believes that A1 makes a one-handed movement that ends his dribble and begins a pass, then the above violation would still apply.
If the official decides the one-handed movement did not end the dribble then A1 may recover the ball. If the recovery is with both hands that ends the dribble and he may not now start a new one. If the recovery is with one hand, A1 may continue his dribble, if the ball doesn't come to rest in that one hand.

[Hawks Coach]

That sums it up rather nicely.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by just another ref

No, this would be a double dribble. casebook 4.15.4 Sit. C

Thanks for clarifying, JAR, and for the good explanation Nevada. Now I'd like to change the situation again and ask another question. Start wit hthe scenario that xxxssmen gave, but after it bounces off the ref, say that it touches A1's leg, or body. Is that also a double dribble? Is it nothing?