Good Block or penalty?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

If the Rule 2 definition was exactly the same as the S&I would Butt Blocking and Face Tackling be called more often?

It seems you are obsessed with arguing semantics and splitting hairs down beyond the eyelash level. I submit the reason more contacts with head are not called fouls is because they are not judged to be deliberate nor intentional and are simply perceived as being incidental contact produced by two people moving in opposite directions.

The 3 acts defined in NF: 2-20-1-a-c all require someone to "initiate" contact in an illegal way. You don't seem willing to accept the reality that officials are trained and taught to be "certain" a foul has been committed before declaring one. That is a workable, proper focus that has served this game well for over 100 years, and should not change.

The primary protection against such fouls being committed is in the teaching (coaching) of proper technique and attitude. The most effective tool in deterring such behavior is a coach who teaches technique properly and is willing to discipline players, who fail to follow instructions, by removing them from participation whether any foul is called, or not.

[JRutledge]

You guys should see the same argument he is making on the NFHS website. He is mostly arguing whether we are calling it face tackling or butt blocking as opposed to simply IHC, which has the same penalty no matter what you actually call the act. He even showed examples of video that could not be butt blocking, mainly because it was a tackle. Then he wanted to call another play face tackling when there was a block.

BJ sure brings some entertainment to these discussions.

Peace

[bigjohn]

Deliberate and intentional was removed from the IHC rules.

http://www.aiaonline.org/story/uploa...1138725781.pdf

[BGroovy]

The first block seems like a judgement call. If it looks to you like face tackling or butt blocking throw it. Hard to tell with the video but looks as if he hit him straight on with his shoulder first so I wouldn't have thrown it but would have reminded the kid to watch his blocking so he doesn't commit a IHC foul. I didn't see the helmet contact. The second block was just a good hit. Hit his left shoulder first. Good play on the offense.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Deliberate and intentional was removed from the IHC rules.

http://www.aiaonline.org/story/uploa...1138725781.pdf

John, we know. They changed the rule a few years ago. And even then I know I called it a few times when the words "intentional and deliberate" were in the rulebook. Then again you said it was never called either.

[bigjohn]

My stance is this. If done while tackling it is face tackling, whether the head is up or down. While blocking, it is butt blocking, head up or down. Spearing covers all other hits not included in Blocking or Tackling. The S&I supports me on this and it is a small thing but it may get IHC called more if all officials had the mind set that all helmet initiated contacts are fouls and all should be strictly called.

Butt Blocking in 1 and 2 and face tackling in 3 are both tactics which involve driving the face mask, frontal area or top of the helmet directly into an opponent in blocking or tackling respectively. both result in a foul for illegal helmet contact

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

My stance is this. If done while tackling it is face tackling, whether the head is up or down. While blocking, it is butt blocking, head up or down. Spearing covers all other hits not included in Blocking or Tackling. The S&I supports me on this and it is a small thing but it may get IHC called more if all officials had the mind set that all helmet initiated contacts are fouls and all should be strictly called.

Butt Blocking in 1 and 2 and face tackling in 3 are both tactics which involve driving the face mask, frontal area or top of the helmet directly into an opponent in blocking or tackling respectively. both result in a foul for illegal helmet contact

Actually the S&I book does not support you at all in the example that you showed and some would say the rulebook says something else (which is ultimately the definition we go by). The example you showed could only be a spear if you judge that there was contact with the helmet first. But if there is contact with the shoulder, then spearing is not a likely possibility.

You keep saying it over and over again and I think you believe that the more you say it will become true, but that is not how it works. That being said, the actual definition is irrelevant because face tackling, butt blocking and spearing are all the same thing in the penalty spectrum. And you cannot Butt Block a ball carrier (but you keep saying it can).

Peace

[bigjohn]

I have never said you could butt block a ball carrier. I said you could face tackle him.

Now you are making stuff up.