NF - Enforcement question

[That Don Guy]

I read a question somewhere about an ambiguity with the new horse collar tackle rule, and I noticed there was a situation where I was not sure where it should be enforced. (Note that I am not an official, but I figure this is the place to ask rule questions.)

Here's the play (which, BTW, has nothing to do with horse collars):
A's ball on the 50. A88 carries the ball to B's 24, where he fumbles. While the ball is loose, B66 grabs A1's facemask (on B's 20). B40 picks up the ball and returns it for a touchdown.
Assuming the penalty is accepted, whose ball is it, and where is it enforced?

Somebody claimed that it was a "loose ball play" because of the fumble.
I am under the impression that it's not a loose ball play as the fumble was beyond the line of scrimmage.
All-but-one doesn't seem to cover this specific situation, and it's not in the case book either. I would say that, since A was last in possession, it's A's ball, and it is enforced from the spot of the fumble, so A's ball on B's 12.
Is this correct?

[waltjp]

Correct, this is not a loose ball play.

2-33

ART. 1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:
a. A free kick or scrimmage kick other than post-scrimmage kick fouls.
b. A legal forward pass.
c. A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.
d. The run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward
pass, backward pass or fumble.

ART. 2 . . . A running play is any action not included in Article 1.

The basic spot is the end of the related run, B's 24, where A88 fumbled. The foul was committed by B before B secured possession of the ball. Because B did not gain possession with 'clean hands' they are not keeping the ball. The penalty will be enforced from B's 24. The result will be 1/10 for A from B's 19, or B's 12 if the facemask was a 15-yarder.

[That Don Guy]

That's what I thought. Thanks.

(And it's a good thing I'm not an official; I thought NF went back to the "all facemasks are 15 yards" rule...)

[Forksref]

This is a foul on a change of possession play (COP).

The "clean hands" principle applies here: B did not get the ball with clean hands, i.e., B fouled before B got the ball. Therefore, B can't keep the ball.

B is penalized from the end of the run (where the fumble occurred).

[kdf5]

A loose ball and a loose ball play have distinct and different definitions. Walt posted the LBP, here's the definition of a loose ball:

2-1-3...A loose ball is a pass, fumble or a kick. The terms “pass,” “fumble”
and “kick” are sometimes used as abbreviations when the ball is loose following
the acts of passing, fumbling or kicking the ball. A loose ball which has not yet
touched the ground is in flight. A grounded loose ball is one which has touched the ground. Any loose ball continues to be a loose ball until a player secures
possession of it or until it becomes dead by rule, whichever comes first.

[kfo9494]

Originally Posted by kdf5

A loose ball and a loose ball play have distinct and different definitions.

You know, even though it is easy for me to understand now, when I first started officiating football I thought since it happened why the ball was loose it was a loose ball play.
Even today when we have newer people calling in our crews I tell them I never what to her that it happened during a loose ball. I want to hear it happened during a fumble, pass,or kick. You are always going to have time to talk about the play since there is nearly always a penalty going to be enforced. That is just my way of getting away from calling all fumbles 'loose balls".

[HLin NC]

a ????

[mbyron]

1. Beanbag the end of the run.
2. Flag the foul.
3. Follow the action to B's endzone.
4. Bring it back according to what walt said:

Originally Posted by waltjp

The basic spot is the end of the related run, B's 24, where A88 fumbled. The foul was committed by B before B secured possession of the ball. Because B did not gain possession with 'clean hands' they are not keeping the ball. The penalty will be enforced from B's 24. The result will be 1/10 for A from B's 19, or B's 12 if the facemask was a 15-yarder.

[HLin NC]

Excellente' Senor Byron