NFHS - Same numbers

[SC Ump]

If a B75 is a substitute coming on the field to replace a teammate who has the same number jersey, should the official prohibit this?

Case book 7-2-5 Sit C, seems to say this is not a problem.

Redding Study guide does not say it's a foul but that the official should prohibit the substitution is if it is noticed. (Oops, I read it wrong. See correction post below.)

Rule book seems to be silent on it... meaning it's legal as I understand it.

[Ed Hickland]

NFHS 7-2-5c states players of the same team shall not participate during the same down.

Not having read Redding I believe the rationale is that an official should prevent this foul if at all possible. It is a live ball foul.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

NFHS 7-2-5c states players of the same team shall not participate during the same down.

Not having read Redding I believe the rationale is that an official should prevent this foul if at all possible. It is a live ball foul.

Are they participating during the same down if one leaves the field and another enters the field before the down begins?

[KWH]

*7.2.5 SITUATION C: Substitute A1 comes in to replace A2. Both are wearing Number 88. RULING: No violaion unless both participate at the same time (1-4-3, 7-2-5c)


This play has been in the case book since (at least) prior to the 1999 issue.
I see absolutly no reason, nor is their any rule book supportf or an official to "insert himself into the game" in this situation!

This brings up another good question. I can see the OP happening in a sub-varsity game. If the coach said something before the game, that he might have two players in the game with the same number, do you cut him some slack knowing it's a sub-varsity game?

We did it a few years ago, informing the opposing coach of the situation before the game of course. The opposing coach had no problem with it at the time, but at halftime, he started griping about it causing problems for his players. My white hat said this is a freaking Saturday morning freshman game, give it a break.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Are they participating during the same down if one leaves the field and another enters the field before the down begins?

Considering the NFHS Rules definition of "Participation"
(NF: 2-30) "Participation is any act or action by a player or non-player that has an influence on play." it appears the prohibition would only apply to a substitution performed when the ball was alive.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

This brings up another good question. I can see the OP happening in a sub-varsity game. If the coach said something before the game, that he might have two players in the game with the same number, do you cut him some slack knowing it's a sub-varsity game?

We did it a few years ago, informing the opposing coach of the situation before the game of course. The opposing coach had no problem with it at the time, but at halftime, he started griping about it causing problems for his players. My white hat said this is a freaking Saturday morning freshman game, give it a break.

You left yourself wide open by allowing it even at the sub-varsity level. Surely you cannot tell me that with all 99 numbers available the coach cannot work out an arrangement where duplicate numbers are participating at the same time.

And, as sure as you allow it this week, next week when I come along and say "no", coach says, they allowed it last week.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Are they participating during the same down if one leaves the field and another enters the field before the down begins?

There is a little math to help understand this situation.

There are 22 players on the field at any one time, 11 on each side. Anyone else is a non-player. When a non-player is summoned into the game he becomes a substitute. When he enters and tells the player he is being replaced the former substitute becomes a player and the former player becomes a replaced player.

Until the ball is snapped -- and the down begins, a player is not participating.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

This brings up another good question. I can see the OP happening in a sub-varsity game. If the coach said something before the game, that he might have two players in the game with the same number, do you cut him some slack knowing it's a sub-varsity game?

We did it a few years ago, informing the opposing coach of the situation before the game of course. The opposing coach had no problem with it at the time, but at halftime, he started griping about it causing problems for his players. My white hat said this is a freaking Saturday morning freshman game, give it a break.

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

You left yourself wide open by allowing it even at the sub-varsity level. Surely you cannot tell me that with all 99 numbers available the coach cannot work out an arrangement where duplicate numbers are participating at the same time.

And, as sure as you allow it this week, next week when I come along and say "no", coach says, they allowed it last week.

I guess it depends on what's accepted in your area. JV and freshman games around here are treated with a lot more leniency. Some schools are lucky enough to have enough jerseys to outfit the team, let alone worry about numbers. It's not a common problem but I have worked games where a back was wearing a lineman's number, or vice-versa. The offending coach usually informs us of the situation before the game and I've never had an opposing coach complain.

[KWH]

I fully support "Ref Ump Welsch's" white hat who hit the nail on the head when he correctly told the coach: "This is a freaking Saturday morning freshman game, give it a break!"

I believe these situations require a little common sense.
For example: In the (JV or lower) pre-game conference when I ask if he runs anything unusual, the head coach says "No we are still learning to snap the football , but OK Ref, I got a guy that wears #99 and he plays left guard the whole game. I might say Coach do you have 50-79 number he can wear? He usually responds with say "No, he is so fat he can't wear anything but 99, crap ref, we are lucky his uncle Fred is a taylor cause he had to sew two jerseys together just to make one large enough!" Or, he might say, hey ref, are budgets are so tight we are lucky to find enough white jersays to field a team. Either way, you need to take the coach at his word that he is doing the best he can to field a team, inform the opposing coach of the situation, and kick-off the game on time.
After all; "This is a freaking Saturday morning freshman game, give it a break!"

Oh, by the way, my usual response is I tell the head coach (of #99) that I intend on informing the opposing coach of the #99 situation AND; unless I return, consider it OK for 99 to play left guard. When I inform him of this, it is not unusual to get a response of something like; Geez ref, thanks for being understanding and working with us, that guy we had last week was a real by the book Bob, he flagged 99 for "Illegal Numbering" and so we were stuck, #99 didn't even get to play after that.

That's my 2 cents

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

This brings up another good question. I can see the OP happening in a sub-varsity game. If the coach said something before the game, that he might have two players in the game with the same number, do you cut him some slack knowing it's a sub-varsity game?

Not here. We require teams to follow the numbering rules at all levels.

And we've never had an issue with it.

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

There is a little math to help understand this situation.

There are 22 players on the field at any one time, 11 on each side. Anyone else is a non-player. When a non-player is summoned into the game he becomes a substitute. When he enters and tells the player he is being replaced the former substitute becomes a player and the former player becomes a replaced player.

Until the ball is snapped -- and the down begins, a player is not participating.

I understand the situation. I replied because I didn't think that you did.

You said the "official should prevent this foul if at all possible." If one is entering and one is leaving, what foul is there to prevent?

[FTVMartin]

In Michigan we have been told to ignore the 50-79 requirment for all sub-varsity contests. We do however, only allow eligible numbers to catch passes.

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

You left yourself wide open by allowing it even at the sub-varsity level. Surely you cannot tell me that with all 99 numbers available the coach cannot work out an arrangement where duplicate numbers are participating at the same time.

And, as sure as you allow it this week, next week when I come along and say "no", coach says, they allowed it last week.

Ed, what if the local official's association said to have leniency at the sub-varsity level when it comes to jersey numbers? We have had to show this in basketball as well, where we would have two players with the same number. Am I to screw the association and go by the book? Do I jeopardize myself with the possibility of the AD squealing to the assigner that I disregarded the association's stance?

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Ed, what if the local official's association said to have leniency at the sub-varsity level when it comes to jersey numbers? We have had to show this in basketball as well, where we would have two players with the same number. Am I to screw the association and go by the book? Do I jeopardize myself with the possibility of the AD squealing to the assigner that I disregarded the association's stance?

IFF (If and only if) the local association ok'ed it and that should be announced to the members and preferably in writing since you are overriding the rule book.

Seems like we are debating something that almost never happens. After 27 seasons I remember maybe twice where duplicate numbers were an issue and then only that they had them. Even the poorest of teams seem to somehow gather uniquely numbered jerseys as normally jerseys are purchased as a set.

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

IFF (If and only if) the local association ok'ed it and that should be announced to the members and preferably in writing since you are overriding the rule book.

Actually the local association ok'd it because it was a "mandate" from the AD's as part of contracting with us (apparently).