American Flag on Your Uniform....

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I guess post 9 and the Officials Guidebook weren't good enough references for you?

The best choice is "don't bother with the flag in the first place."

Sorry...didn't catch that reply, Rich. And like I said, I think they should be mandatory, and I think they look good and dress up the uniform with a bit more class. Two of my guys are military vets, one is a police officer, I have 2 family members overseas right now and between the 2 crews I either run or work with, there are another 6 currently in the military. I know that's not how you meant it, but the flag supposedly being a bother is a shame in it's own right.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Canned Heat

Sorry...didn't catch that reply, Rich. And like I said, I think they should be mandatory, and I think they look good and dress up the uniform with a bit more class. Two of my guys are military vets, one is a police officer, I have 2 family members overseas right now and between the 2 crews I either run or work with, there are another 6 currently in the military. I know that's not how you meant it, but the flag supposedly being a bother is a shame in it's own right.

I don't see any correlation between sports officiating and wearing a flag. I really don't get it. I don't wear a flag on any of my street clothes, why should I wear one when I am on the field/court?

And yes, having to sew anything on a shirt is a bother...I don't care if it is a state association patch, position placket, numbers, or a flag.

[Canned Heat]

We can have a pi$$ing match about this all day if you want. You and several others don't care for them...I and several other officials do.

I like them, I think they're decent and professional looking, and add a little class, maybe even a bit of pride, respect, or authority to the uniform as a whole. Something that is seriously missing in society when you see all of the flack and incidents that are happening between refs/umps and fans, players and such.

Obviously, you don't get why me or any of my crew want to wear them either. It's not about how much work it is to have your wife, sister, mom, or sporting goods store put a patch on your shirt(s). Getting a patch sewn on, temp glued, or velcroed on by yourself takes about as much energy as it does to get out of bed....or to get into position or out of the way when a play is coming right at you, for that matter.

I came here looking for in-depth insight to various areas of officiating certain sports, to share some things that I've seen over 15 years of officiating, and to bounce questions off of some others that have worked their sports long enough to give a concise, common, and correct answer to anything I may have an interest in and to see what others have witnessed over the course of their careers. A good portion of you guys seem like you're out for an argument rather than trying to point someone in the right direction. Maybe some of you should be coaching or in the stands instead, where you apparently see it all.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Canned Heat

We can have a pi$$ing match about this all day if you want. You and several others don't care for them...I and several other officials do.

I like them, I think they're decent and professional looking, and add a little class, maybe even a bit of pride, respect, or authority to the uniform as a whole. Something that is seriously missing in society when you see all of the flack and incidents that are happening between refs/umps and fans, players and such.

Obviously, you don't get why me or any of my crew want to wear them either. It's not about how much work it is to have your wife, sister, mom, or sporting goods store put a patch on your shirt(s). Getting a patch sewn on, temp glued, or velcroed on by yourself takes about as much energy as it does to get out of bed....or to get into position or out of the way when a play is coming right at you, for that matter.

I came here looking for in-depth insight to various areas of officiating certain sports, to share some things that I've seen over 15 years of officiating, and to bounce questions off of some others that have worked their sports long enough to give a concise, common, and correct answer to anything I may have an interest in and to see what others have witnessed over the course of their careers. A good portion of you guys seem like you're out for an argument rather than trying to point someone in the right direction. Maybe some of you should be coaching or in the stands instead, where you apparently see it all.

You made a statement that people here have the right to disagree with. And it is completely in the right for people to question you one why you feel that way. If that is a problem, then a discussion board is not going to be for you, because that is what we do here is debate several issues and that does include what we put on our uniforms. I personally wear a flag on my uniform and it is optional. Just about everyone does it where I live, because when 9-11 took place, it was obvious football season. Those around here, starting wearing flags on our jersey (which there was not standard policy if I remember correctly before that time) around that time and did not wear them before that incident. We have done it ever since, but I do not know if it is useful or appropriate. And that is why on every other sport I work. I do not wear a flag at all. I will do it only because the crew and most crews do it in football. But if someone does not put one on their jersey, it is no skin off my back. It was a legitimate question to ask you why you feel that way and you still have not answered the question. I think wearing a flag does not make you more patriotic or is something that needs to be displayed on a uniform of non-governmental people like officials are in their role during games. We are independent contactors and only working because our states allow us to work. Flags to me are not necessary for our jobs. And when you say they should be mandatory, people want to know why considering that even the government suggest that the proper display of flags are not to go on uniforms.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Canned Heat

We can have a pi$$ing match about this all day if you want. You and several others don't care for them...I and several other officials do.

I like them, I think they're decent and professional looking, and add a little class, maybe even a bit of pride, respect, or authority to the uniform as a whole. Something that is seriously missing in society when you see all of the flack and incidents that are happening between refs/umps and fans, players and such.

Obviously, you don't get why me or any of my crew want to wear them either. It's not about how much work it is to have your wife, sister, mom, or sporting goods store put a patch on your shirt(s). Getting a patch sewn on, temp glued, or velcroed on by yourself takes about as much energy as it does to get out of bed....or to get into position or out of the way when a play is coming right at you, for that matter.

I came here looking for in-depth insight to various areas of officiating certain sports, to share some things that I've seen over 15 years of officiating, and to bounce questions off of some others that have worked their sports long enough to give a concise, common, and correct answer to anything I may have an interest in and to see what others have witnessed over the course of their careers. A good portion of you guys seem like you're out for an argument rather than trying to point someone in the right direction. Maybe some of you should be coaching or in the stands instead, where you apparently see it all.

Some of us have been here for a decade or near to it and ask questions about OFFICIATING and talk about OFFICIATING. You've made 9 posts and most of them have to do with a flag patch and nothing to do with officiating. Maybe someone else should be in the stands.

[Canned Heat]

Point is Rich, I came looking for advice. I got advice and then I also got what I consider more of a chastising because I was for the flags. I have no qualms whatsoever with anyone questioning my reasons. I cut my teeth in reffing back in my early twenties with a man that was Chief of Police in my city. He was also a highly decorated vet from the Vietnam War. In his last year of officiating, also the year of the 9/11 tragedy, we thought we would honor him to a degree, and our country....something I apparently need to defend to some of the guys who have responded today. I took over that same crew and over a few years have added some great crew members who also happen to be military veterans with one currently being a police officer. We thought it would be a nice touch to add.

I can tell you that back in 2001 when we wore the flag for the remainder of that season, people would comment on how much they thought the flags looked great and how they looked a part of the uniform.

I can tell by your comments alone that many a good official have probably walked away from this forum due to pure attitude. If I didn't have to defend a simple 2"x3" flag to the bitter end like a cornered pit bull, you're right I'd have about 4 total posts. And you having 10 years of seniority on one of probably 20 or more different officiating forums across the country makes you obviously the best official here or anywhere.

I'll stop by now again to look at or address something I may come across. In the meantime, I look forward to seeing you working the big game next February. You're obviously far and away the cream of the crop...at least from WI, anyway.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Canned Heat

Point is Rich, I came looking for advice. I got advice and then I also got what I consider more of a chastising because I was for the flags. I have no qualms whatsoever with anyone questioning my reasons. I cut my teeth in reffing back in my early twenties with a man that was Chief of Police in my city. He was also a highly decorated vet from the Vietnam War. In his last year of officiating, also the year of the 9/11 tragedy, we thought we would honor him to a degree, and our country....something I apparently need to defend to some of the guys who have responded today. I took over that same crew and over a few years have added some great crew members who also happen to be military veterans with one currently being a police officer. We thought it would be a nice touch to add.

I can tell you that back in 2001 when we wore the flag for the remainder of that season, people would comment on how much they thought the flags looked great and how they looked a part of the uniform.

I can tell by your comments alone that many a good official have probably walked away from this forum due to pure attitude. If I didn't have to defend a simple 2"x3" flag to the bitter end like a cornered pit bull, you're right I'd have about 4 total posts. And you having 10 years of seniority on one of probably 20 or more different officiating forums across the country makes you obviously the best official here or anywhere.

I'll stop by now again to look at or address something I may come across. In the meantime, I look forward to seeing you working the big game next February. You're obviously far and away the cream of the crop...at least from WI, anyway.

You asked where a flag should be given. I told you (post 9). You stated they should be mandatory. I find that stupid. Am I not entitled to my opinion the same as you are entitled to yours? I think the US Flag Code is pretty compelling, personally. My personal opinion is that requiring a flag takes away all meaning of the flag -- I'll take that a step further -- requiring that ALL members of the crew (which you have to do if anyone wears the flag) wear one either means that all people really feel strongly over it (which is fine, and I would never tell you that you couldn't wear one), or some are simply wearing it to fit in, which I find a terrible reason to wear one.

My point, later, was this: On Internet boards it's polite to come in and get to know the people who have made this a community, not come in like a bull in a china shop and try to throw weight around. It's much more pleasant around here if you get to know us before calling us names.

And I don't consider myself anything special -- just another official running around the fields of southern Wisconsin Friday nights (and frequently other nights) in the fall with a few of my closest friends.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

My personal opinion is that requiring a flag takes away all meaning of the flag -- I'll take that a step further -- requiring that ALL members of the crew (which you have to do if anyone wears the flag) wear one either means that all people really feel strongly over it (which is fine, and I would never tell you that you couldn't wear one), or some are simply wearing it to fit in, which I find a terrible reason to wear one.

Agree, completely. Unfortunately I work games in a state that thinks we can win the war on terror if only officials will wear the flag.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Canned Heat

Point is Rich, I came looking for advice. I got advice and then I also got what I consider more of a chastising because I was for the flags.

No, you got chastised for saying it should be mandatory. I'm all for the flags, in spite of the flag code. I also think if worn, they should be worn on the right sleeve per the flag code. But that's not how it's done here; and I'm in a military town. I think it should be optional, though.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Canned Heat

I like them, I think they're decent and professional looking, and add a little class, maybe even a bit of pride, respect, or authority to the uniform as a whole. Something that is seriously missing in society when you see all of the flack and incidents that are happening between refs/umps and fans, players and such.

Oddly, the US Flag Code states that it's disrespectful to place the flag on athletic uniforms.

Go figure.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by LDUB

I don't see any correlation between sports officiating and wearing a flag. I really don't get it. I don't wear a flag on any of my street clothes, why should I wear one when I am on the field/court?

And yes, having to sew anything on a shirt is a bother...I don't care if it is a state association patch, position placket, numbers, or a flag.

I think you covered it when you observed, "I really don't get it.". It's not about a correlation between sports officiating and our flag.

It's about respect, it's about 9/11, it's about honoring those who are spread out around the globe so we're able to enjoy participating in a great game back home without fearing that something terrible might happen just for being there. It's about being proud enough about being blessed as an American, to designate yourself as an American.

Unfortunately, if you really don't "get it", it's doubtful you ever will.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I think you covered it when you observed, "I really don't get it.". It's not about a correlation between sports officiating and our flag.

It's about respect, it's about 9/11, it's about honoring those who are spread out around the globe so we're able to enjoy participating in a great game back home without fearing that something terrible might happen just for being there. It's about being proud enough about being blessed as an American, to designate yourself as an American.

Unfortunately, if you really don't "get it", it's doubtful you ever will.

That event is not the only tragedy in this countries history. There was the Oklahoma City Bombing that involved governmental agencies and people working in those agencies both military and civilian casualties, and no one was wearing a flag after that event. And the event was done in direct conflict with the U.S. Government, but the terrorist were from this country. And if that is the only reason, in my opinion that is not a very good reason. Just like it was not a very good reason for Presidential Candidates to wear a flag on their suits for the same reason. And even in that case, the biggest critics of people not wearing flags on their lapel, were some of the same people that did not wear them either but were claiming everyone that was "against America" that did not decide to wear such a symbol. This is not the first war we have had in this country or the first tragic event, so and that is why some people "do not get" why this event was so different?

Peace

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That event is not the only tragedy in this countries history. There was the Oklahoma City Bombing that involved governmental agencies and people working in those agencies both military and civilian casualties, and no one was wearing a flag after that event. And the event was done in direct conflict with the U.S. Government, but the terrorist were from this country. And if that is the only reason, in my opinion that is not a very good reason. Just like it was not a very good reason for Presidential Candidates to wear a flag on their suits for the same reason. And even in that case, the biggest critics of people not wearing flags on their lapel, were some of the same people that did not wear them either but were claiming everyone that was "against America" that did not decide to wear such a symbol. This is not the first war we have had in this country or the first tragic event, so and that is why some people "do not get" why this event was so different?

Peace

I don't know anybody, nor really care, about those who may have criticized someone else's "patriotism" either for wearing a flag, or not wearing one. In NY, certified H.S. football officials were instructed to wear small flags, following the 9/11 incident at varsity level games.

I'm not aware of any officials who had a problem with that instruction and most that I know, wear the same shirts, with flags appropriately attached, at all level games, and do so willingly, without reservation.

I'm not interested in trying to educate any adult about what is unique about the 9/11 incident, or why it stands out against other similar acts, or that what it represents may well be a reference to a summary of other similar acts. My personal understanding, which may or may not be totally accurate, is that the instruction to add flags to our uniforms was to some extent intended to show solidarity, honor and support for those that were lost on 9/11/01, as well as those who choose to stand in harm's way, on my behalf since that date so that I may continue to enjoy all the benefits my status as an American provide.

I afixed flags to my football shirts because I was directed to by my State Association, but I have no problem or reservation doing so, and actually believe it is an appropriate demonstration of well deserved respect and appreciation for those serving our nation. Many Americans choose, individually, to wear American flag pins, or other representations, on their everyday attire out of a similar sense of respect and appreciation.

It's not required, or mandatory nor should doing so be subject to speculation or question, as it's clearly an individual decision and choice. Individuals who elect to criticize , or question the motivation of, others for wearing a flag representation are as out of place as any who chose to criticize those choosing not to wear a flag representation.

It's not necessary that anyone, "get it" any more that it's necessary for someone to question, or disparage, those who do. However it is not uncommon that the willingness, or refusal, to pay earned and due respect very likely contributes to the overall perception of an individual formed by others.

[JRutledge]

amjc,

I am glad you want to wear a flag and that is your opinion to do so. But for the rest of us that do not want to wear a flag or think it is not necessary, that is our right. And that is why only in football I wear them because people on my crew seem to think we all have to have the same things on our uniform. In my other sports I am not wearing a flag. I think it is ultimately inappropriate considering the codes and unnecessary, end of story.

Peace

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I think you covered it when you observed, "I really don't get it.". It's not about a correlation between sports officiating and our flag.

It's about respect, it's about 9/11....

Unfortunately, if you really don't "get it", it's doubtful you ever will.

If it isn't about sports officiating then do you wear a flag on your street clothes?

The part I do not understand is why many people would never wear a flag on their street clothes but when they go out to officiate they wear shirts with flags. To them there must be some correlation between officiating and patriotism as if it was about respect and all the things you said then they would wear one on their street clothes also.