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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 04:12pm
Rich's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canned Heat View Post
Point is Rich, I came looking for advice. I got advice and then I also got what I consider more of a chastising because I was for the flags. I have no qualms whatsoever with anyone questioning my reasons. I cut my teeth in reffing back in my early twenties with a man that was Chief of Police in my city. He was also a highly decorated vet from the Vietnam War. In his last year of officiating, also the year of the 9/11 tragedy, we thought we would honor him to a degree, and our country....something I apparently need to defend to some of the guys who have responded today. I took over that same crew and over a few years have added some great crew members who also happen to be military veterans with one currently being a police officer. We thought it would be a nice touch to add.

I can tell you that back in 2001 when we wore the flag for the remainder of that season, people would comment on how much they thought the flags looked great and how they looked a part of the uniform.

I can tell by your comments alone that many a good official have probably walked away from this forum due to pure attitude. If I didn't have to defend a simple 2"x3" flag to the bitter end like a cornered pit bull, you're right I'd have about 4 total posts. And you having 10 years of seniority on one of probably 20 or more different officiating forums across the country makes you obviously the best official here or anywhere.

I'll stop by now again to look at or address something I may come across. In the meantime, I look forward to seeing you working the big game next February. You're obviously far and away the cream of the crop...at least from WI, anyway.
You asked where a flag should be given. I told you (post 9). You stated they should be mandatory. I find that stupid. Am I not entitled to my opinion the same as you are entitled to yours? I think the US Flag Code is pretty compelling, personally. My personal opinion is that requiring a flag takes away all meaning of the flag -- I'll take that a step further -- requiring that ALL members of the crew (which you have to do if anyone wears the flag) wear one either means that all people really feel strongly over it (which is fine, and I would never tell you that you couldn't wear one), or some are simply wearing it to fit in, which I find a terrible reason to wear one.

My point, later, was this: On Internet boards it's polite to come in and get to know the people who have made this a community, not come in like a bull in a china shop and try to throw weight around. It's much more pleasant around here if you get to know us before calling us names.

And I don't consider myself anything special -- just another official running around the fields of southern Wisconsin Friday nights (and frequently other nights) in the fall with a few of my closest friends.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 04:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
That event is not the only tragedy in this countries history. There was the Oklahoma City Bombing that involved governmental agencies and people working in those agencies both military and civilian casualties, and no one was wearing a flag after that event. And the event was done in direct conflict with the U.S. Government, but the terrorist were from this country. And if that is the only reason, in my opinion that is not a very good reason. Just like it was not a very good reason for Presidential Candidates to wear a flag on their suits for the same reason. And even in that case, the biggest critics of people not wearing flags on their lapel, were some of the same people that did not wear them either but were claiming everyone that was "against America" that did not decide to wear such a symbol. This is not the first war we have had in this country or the first tragic event, so and that is why some people "do not get" why this event was so different?

Peace
I don't know anybody, nor really care, about those who may have criticized someone else's "patriotism" either for wearing a flag, or not wearing one. In NY, certified H.S. football officials were instructed to wear small flags, following the 9/11 incident at varsity level games.

I'm not aware of any officials who had a problem with that instruction and most that I know, wear the same shirts, with flags appropriately attached, at all level games, and do so willingly, without reservation.

I'm not interested in trying to educate any adult about what is unique about the 9/11 incident, or why it stands out against other similar acts, or that what it represents may well be a reference to a summary of other similar acts. My personal understanding, which may or may not be totally accurate, is that the instruction to add flags to our uniforms was to some extent intended to show solidarity, honor and support for those that were lost on 9/11/01, as well as those who choose to stand in harm's way, on my behalf since that date so that I may continue to enjoy all the benefits my status as an American provide.

I afixed flags to my football shirts because I was directed to by my State Association, but I have no problem or reservation doing so, and actually believe it is an appropriate demonstration of well deserved respect and appreciation for those serving our nation. Many Americans choose, individually, to wear American flag pins, or other representations, on their everyday attire out of a similar sense of respect and appreciation.

It's not required, or mandatory nor should doing so be subject to speculation or question, as it's clearly an individual decision and choice. Individuals who elect to criticize , or question the motivation of, others for wearing a flag representation are as out of place as any who chose to criticize those choosing not to wear a flag representation.

It's not necessary that anyone, "get it" any more that it's necessary for someone to question, or disparage, those who do. However it is not uncommon that the willingness, or refusal, to pay earned and due respect very likely contributes to the overall perception of an individual formed by others.

Last edited by ajmc; Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 04:15pm.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 01:51pm
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amjc,

I am glad you want to wear a flag and that is your opinion to do so. But for the rest of us that do not want to wear a flag or think it is not necessary, that is our right. And that is why only in football I wear them because people on my crew seem to think we all have to have the same things on our uniform. In my other sports I am not wearing a flag. I think it is ultimately inappropriate considering the codes and unnecessary, end of story.

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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 10:42pm
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Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
Our crew wears the reverse flag on our right sleeve as well. I live right by the national American Legion apparel HQ so I volunteered to pick up the flags for our crew a couple years ago. They knew why I was getting them and didn't say that was an inappropriate use of wearing the flag. They did tell me though about the right sleeve/reverse flag requirement though. The idea is to wear the stars closest to your heart or something like that. We get the "stupid" comments occasionally as well.
Anyone know why they are worn in a reverse flag look?
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 10:47pm
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Originally Posted by Umpmazza View Post
Anyone know why they are worn in a reverse flag look?

The flag is always flown with the canon forward.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 09:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umpmazza View Post
Anyone know why they are worn in a reverse flag look?
If a flag patch is worn, military regulations require that "The full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is worn so that the star field faces forward, or to the flag’s own right. When worn in this manner, the flag is facing to the observer’s right, and gives the effect of the flag flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward.

The rule dates back to the Army's early history, when both mounted cavalry and infantry units would designate a standard bearer, who carried the Colors into battle. As he charged, his forward momentum caused the flag to stream back. Since the Stars and Stripes are mounted with the canton closest to the pole, that section stayed to the right, while the stripes flew to the left."
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 10:24am
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Originally Posted by Jim D. View Post
If a flag patch is worn, military regulations require that "The full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is worn so that the star field faces forward, or to the flag’s own right. When worn in this manner, the flag is facing to the observer’s right, and gives the effect of the flag flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward.

The rule dates back to the Army's early history, when both mounted cavalry and infantry units would designate a standard bearer, who carried the Colors into battle. As he charged, his forward momentum caused the flag to stream back. Since the Stars and Stripes are mounted with the canton closest to the pole, that section stayed to the right, while the stripes flew to the left."
Ding Ding Ding we have a winner....LOL I spent 9 yrs in the US Army Infantry. The flag had a special place in my heart. I will wear it and wear it proud
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 10:25am
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
The flag is always flown with the canon forward.
wear did you see a canon on the flag?
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 10:51am
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Originally Posted by Umpmazza View Post
wear did you see a canon on the flag?
canton
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 01:39pm
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Originally Posted by Canned Heat View Post
Point is Rich, I came looking for advice. I got advice and then I also got what I consider more of a chastising because I was for the flags.
No, you got chastised for saying it should be mandatory. I'm all for the flags, in spite of the flag code. I also think if worn, they should be worn on the right sleeve per the flag code. But that's not how it's done here; and I'm in a military town. I think it should be optional, though.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 10:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
In NY we're instructed to wear a flag in the upper center of our back, I believe it's 2" below the collar. I thought that was an NFHS requirement. Why would anyone be "against" wearing one?
Not an NFHS requirement, it is a requirement for New York. The whole controversy over where to wear it arose because one association wore it over the heart and was threatened with de-certification if they persisted.

Personally, I think on the back is retreat position, I want Osama to see me charging directly at his sorry butt proudly displaying the American flag.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 11:12pm
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Originally Posted by Ed Hickland View Post
Personally, I think on the back is retreat position, I want Osama to see me charging directly at his sorry butt proudly displaying the American flag.

Let's see, you're the WH, so for Osama to see you charging his sorry butt he'd have to be a double jointed O-lineman.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 16, 2009, 11:14pm
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Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
My personal opinion is that requiring a flag takes away all meaning of the flag -- I'll take that a step further -- requiring that ALL members of the crew (which you have to do if anyone wears the flag) wear one either means that all people really feel strongly over it (which is fine, and I would never tell you that you couldn't wear one), or some are simply wearing it to fit in, which I find a terrible reason to wear one.
Agree, completely. Unfortunately I work games in a state that thinks we can win the war on terror if only officials will wear the flag.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 17, 2009, 01:34pm
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Originally Posted by MrUmpire View Post
Agree, completely. Unfortunately I work games in a state that thinks we can win the war on terror if only officials will wear the flag.
Can't say for sure about the officials in whatever State you work in, "Mr. Umpire", but your comments suggest there is at least one really smug, arrogant official in the mix who has no problem mocking all of his fellow officials and presumes to speak for an entire State.

Did your fellow officials actually tell you what they think, or is that just something someone so full of themself is automatically blessed with?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 17, 2009, 02:24pm
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
Can't say for sure about the officials in whatever State you work in, "Mr. Umpire", but your comments suggest there is at least one really smug, arrogant official in the mix who has no problem mocking all of his fellow officials and presumes to speak for an entire State.
I would agree, and unfortunately he ruled that we all had to wear the flag.
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