No Longer a Potential Blocker

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Semantics can create a lot of unnecessary trouble, especially when taken out of context. Case Book 9.2.3.A specifically relates to a receiver cutting away from a defender, pursued and pushed by a defender as the receiver is moving away. Of course this situation is illegal use of the hands, but is not the situation described in the original question.

NF:9.2.3.d is not complicated; "A defensive player shall not (d): Contact an eligible receiver who is no longer a potential blocker". Obviously, the key is what is determined by what "no longer a potential blocker" means.

That has long been understood to mean, any offensive player between a runner and a defensive player is a potential blocker. Before a passer actually throws a football, he is a runner, and every offensive player between that runner and every defensive player is a potential blocker, and therefore can be legally contacted before the ball is actually thrown.

As long as the defensive player can keep his opponent between him and the runner, all the way to the end line, he can consider the opponent a "potential blocker", and legally initiate contact. As the case book points out, when the offensive player moves away from, or past, the defender the threat he poses, as a potential blocker, evaporates as does the protection the defensive player enjoys from contecting him.

You need to rethink this. If B is blocking, chucking or otherwise inhibiting A's ability to run a pattern once it's established that A is not a threat to block because the ball hasn't yet been thrown you're giving B a huge advantage. The very reason the ball may not be thrown is because of B's action against the player trying to run his pass route.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by waltjp

You need to rethink this. If B is blocking, chucking or otherwise inhibiting A's ability to run a pattern once it's established that A is not a threat to block because the ball hasn't yet been thrown you're giving B a huge advantage. The very reason the ball may not be thrown is because of B's action against the player trying to run his pass route.

My point. Know as the R sometimes with a scrambling QB you see the decisions going through his mind as he looks down field. If B is inhibiting an A he will look away and may get sacked because of B's action down field. In other words, B's illegal contact may give B a huge advantage.

One youth "coach" told me this past season they were going to bump receivers off their routes to which my reply was be prepared to see my flag.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by waltjp

You need to rethink this. If B is blocking, chucking or otherwise inhibiting A's ability to run a pattern once it's established that A is not a threat to block because the ball hasn't yet been thrown you're giving B a huge advantage. The very reason the ball may not be thrown is because of B's action against the player trying to run his pass route.

As Kdf5 points out there is no definition of a "potential" receiver, because NOBODY is a receiver until a ball is actually thrown. Eligibility rules have nothing to do with what happens before a pass is thrown and simply identifies who is allowed to catch a pass "IF" a pass is thrown.

NF: 2.3.5 explains what a defensive player is allowed to do, (a) provides him the authority to "ward off an opponent who is blocking him or is attempting to block him." Keep in mind "B" has no advance knowledge of what type of play is unfolding and the basic premis is, that until the ball is actually thrown, every opponent between the defensive player and the runner (who may or may not subsequently become a passer) is a potential blocker and the defender has every right to defend himself, all the way to the end line, which is different than other rule codes.

NF: 7.5.6 clearly indicates, "Pass eligibility rules apply only to a legal forward pass." Until the pass is thrown, eligibility is not a relevant factor.

Suggesting that a player, because he wears a certain number and has assumed a certain position satisfying eligibility requirements is afforded added protections and enjoys some special right of way to run patterns, simply does not exist at the NFHS level. Until an offensive player, eligible or not, ceases to be a blocking threat by running past, or away, from a defender before a legal pass is actually thrown, is fair game for a legal block from a defender. If the defender holds or otherwise illegally impedes an opponent, who is not a threat, is a different story.

As for advantage, the offense enjoys the biggest unfair advantage in that they know ahead of time whether or not a pass might be thrown. If the defender initiates contact while the opponent is between him and the passer, before the opponent occupies the same line, or is moving away from the defender he is totally within his rights, and the NFHS rules, in doing so. You should not be flagging bumping potential receivers, when it's done properly.

That may not be the case with other rules codes which include additional restrictions and considerations. However those restrictions and considerations are not applicable to NFHS contests.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by ajmc

As Kdf5 points out there is no definition of a "potential" receiver, because NOBODY is a receiver until a ball is actually thrown.

But YOU'RE the one who stated there ARE potential receivers. Now you point out there is no definition.

Eligibility rules have nothing to do with what happens before a pass is thrown and simply identifies who is allowed to catch a pass "IF" a pass is thrown.

Eligibility rules deal with legal forward passes as opposed to an illegal forward pass. Nowhere does it say eligibility is conditional. Please cite your rule (2nd request for a rule citing).

NF: 2.3.5 explains what a defensive player is allowed to do, (a) provides him the authority to "ward off an opponent who is blocking him or is attempting to block him." Keep in mind "B" has no advance knowledge of what type of play is unfolding and the basic premis is, that until the ball is actually thrown, every opponent between the defensive player and the runner (who may or may not subsequently become a passer) is a potential blocker and the defender has every right to defend himself, all the way to the end line, which is different than other rule codes.

Not according to the Case Book. See page 65. 9.2.3.A: "However, if the receiver is not attempting to block or has gone past or is moving away, it is illegal for the defender to use hands in the manner described".

NF: 7.5.6 clearly indicates, "Pass eligibility rules apply only to a legal forward pass." Until the pass is thrown, eligibility is not a relevant factor.

What about 7-5-6d: A player who is eligible at the start of the down remains eligible throughout the down. You're saying his eligibility is retroactive IF a pass is thrown which is not what 7-5-6d says.

Suggesting that a player, because he wears a certain number and has assumed a certain position satisfying eligibility requirements is afforded added protections and enjoys some special right of way to run patterns, simply does not exist at the NFHS level.

7-5-6d says there are players who are eligible at the start of the down. 7-5-6a says there are eligible receivers by position and number and they are afforded protection as in 9-2-3d.

Until an offensive player, eligible or not, ceases to be a blocking threat by running past, or away, from a defender before a legal pass is actually thrown, is fair game for a legal block from a defender. If the defender holds or otherwise illegally impedes an opponent, who is not a threat, is a different story.

As for advantage, the offense enjoys the biggest unfair advantage in that they know ahead of time whether or not a pass might be thrown. If the defender initiates contact while the opponent is between him and the passer, before the opponent occupies the same line, or is moving away from the defender he is totally within his rights, and the NFHS rules, in doing so. You should not be flagging bumping potential receivers, when it's done properly.

Now you're getting it. However, you said you can bump him all the way to the end line which is clearly against the Case Book.

That may not be the case with other rules codes which include additional restrictions and considerations. However those restrictions and considerations are not applicable to NFHS contests.

Because you say so? You haven't proved it. You say up above that it is "different than other rule codes". Now you say it may not be the case. Which is it?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Because you say so? You haven't proved it. You say up above that it is "different than other rule codes". Now you say it may not be the case. Which is it?

I'm not sure, Kdf5 whether you're seriously looking for an answer, or looking for an argument. I have no interest in parsing words with you and have been trying to explain, a pretty basic understanding. My apologies if I have not been clear enough for you.

Allow me to start, and try again. A defensive player may legally initiate contact with an opponent anywhere on the field, so long as it doesn't violate NF: 2.3.5 or 6.

The simple fact that any offensive player happens to qualify as an eligible receiver is totally immaterial as to what he can do, or can be done to him during a running play. Until someone actually throws a pass, the defense is entirely within it's rights to consider the play unfolding a running play, up to the instant a legal forward pass is actually thrown.

Until a legal forward pass is thrown, a defensive player is entitled to iniate contact with any opponent who is between him, and the runner, or until an opponent occupies the same yard line (without posing a blocking threat) or has run past the defender, or is running away from the defender.

If the defender is skilled enough to keep his opponent between him and the runner, whereas that opponent remains a potential blocker, until such runner becomes a passer, he can initiate contact legally over the entire length of a football field. The notion that an opponent, because of his eligibility to catch a forward pass, somehow allows him freedom from contact prior to a legal pass being thrown is absolute and utter nonsense, unless the receiver is judged, by the covering official, to no longer pose a blocking threat, by running past, or away from, the defender.

Other rule codes have applied additional restrictions, i.e. no contact after 5 yards, that DO NOT apply to NFHS rules.

Waltjp: I have no idea what your problem is, or what you find problematic with what I've said, but either I'm not getting my point across, or you're not paying attention to what I've said. If you'd care to be more specific, I'd be happy to address your concerns.

In the meantime, don't concern yourself with my being interested in applying to work on "your crew".