Ravens/Steelers game

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

because this specific rules applies to tackling maybe??? last time i checked, the defense was responsible for that. As I posted earlier, watch the replay then come back and tell me the defender does not lead with the crown of his helmet and makes contact with his helmet before his shoulder. FYI, the objectivity comment relates to all the Raven/Steeler fans here, not just JR's.

Therein lies the problem, you don't understand the rules or their interpretations.

If you watch objectively you'll see the tackler lead with his shoulder. The reason the runner got hit in the head is because he put his head there.

Football is a sport filled with violent contact. Not all of that contact is illegal.

btw - I don't know if JR is or isn't a fan of either team and nothing stated in his post gives reason to believe he isn't being objective.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Edit: For the record, I'm not a fan of either of these teams. I just think NFL officiating is probably the worst of any major sport because I don't know the rules.

There...fixed it for ya!

[BktBallRef]

Oh joy! It's idiot fanboy time!

Anybody wanna bets these two idiots are the same person?

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

References please?

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

13. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent.

14. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.

These are two rules infractions resulting in a 15 yard penatly. The replay clearly shows Clark leads with the crown of his helmet, not his shoulder as some here would like to believe, striking MaGahee between the front and side of his helmet. Those two rules apply to defensive players for those of you wondering why runningbacks/recievers can lead with their helmet and defenders can't.

Originally Posted by daggo66

References please?

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

Great, you found a rule but it still doesn't back your assertion the the offense can not be guilty of leading with the helmet.

Can you share with is what clinics you've attended where these rules have been discussed and interpreted? (Joe Buck, Troy Aikman, Phil Simms, John Madden and the like are not credible sources.)

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Therein lies the problem, you don't understand the rules or their interpretations.

If you watch objectively you'll see the tackler lead with his shoulder. The reason the runner got hit in the head is because he put his head there.

Football is a sport filled with violent contact. Not all of that contact is illegal.

btw - I don't know if JR is or isn't a fan of either team and nothing stated in his post gives reason to believe he isn't being objective.

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

I can't watch Youtube videos from my work computer (probably a good thing). The disadvantage you have (and just don't realize) is the hours and hours of film study the NFL guys have. Even those of us who work HS and small college have likely seen some film study on the difference between leading with your head and leading with your shoulder.

If I recall correctly from watching the reply several times last night, the defender was attempting to deliver the blow with his shoulder and not his head. Leading with the head does look different. That's why you and a trained official can look at the exact same video and see it totally differently. The amount of training and video study ONE of the NFL officials involved in this play has seen possibly exceeds the total of everyone on this board combined.

It's still possible to get this type of play wrong and as you can see there are officials on here who have different opinions on this play. None of them accuse the officials of being incompetent though. This was a tough call that can be debated on slow motion replay either way. That doesn't make the official right or wrong as he has to go with his trained judgement. I bet Pereira probably supports the call either way on this one as well unless there is some specific directive or training on this type of hit that I wouldn't be privvy to. You are entitled to our opinion as well but to state the officials are horrible and totally missed this one is just wrong and only makes you look bad.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

...Comments from refs like yourself kind of prove my point that the game is well beyond your mental abilities and it is time for leagues to allow a bit more technology into the games to assist the poor state of officiating.

Why don't you step up and improve officiating? What are your contribuitions to the profession?

BTW, can we see some film of you at work? We would love to critique your abilities.

And Clark did lead with his shoulder. He turned his body so his right shoulder was leading. Unfortunately he is not a turtle and he can't retract his head back into his shoulder pads. I'm an Eagles fan, leading with the helmet is what Brian Dawkins does so I definitely know what it looks like when a player actually does do it.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

Ok, let's pretend this game was played in 2006, since those are the rules you are referring to. The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player. That means it relies on the official's judgement. I'm thinking the judged the hit was not unnecessary and that the runner was not defenseless. Next.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

The video CLEARLY shows the initial contact was with the shoulder and the 2 helmets meeting a split second later. Initial contact is what is ruled on.

Let me give you an example. Under high school rules it is illegal to block below the waist outside of the free blocking zone. However if the defender puts his hands down to ward off the low block, the initial contact was with the hands and therefore it is not a penalty for blocjing below the waist.

Again you need to remember that the officials are limited in what they can call by the actual rules. And by actual rules I mean the actual current rules. They change every year.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

ummm, are kickoff or punt coverage teams considered to be playing offense or defense? Once a ball is intercepted, is the team that was just intercepted still playing offense???? Is this concept beyond your mental capabilities??? Comments from refs like yourself kind of prove my point that the game is well beyond your mental abilities and it is time for leagues to allow a bit more technology into the games to assist the poor state of officiating.

When discussing rules, the team on offense is team A and the team on defense is team B. Those designations do not change throughout the down regardless of a change of possession. The same applies to special teams, kickers are team K and receivers are team R.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Obviously, the comments here, including yours, are posted by Steeler and Ravens fans. Let me clear things up for you. Watch the replay in slow motion. You will see McGahee clearly being hit on the side of his helmet with the crown of Clarks helmet. There are specific rules regarding this which I'll post:

It is clear you do not know the rules. You did not even realize in your post that the word "any" was used when it talked about helmet contact.

That says it all for me. I will leave you to your fan boy discussion. Because it is clear you know nothing about rules or officiating.

Peace

[ajmc]

Actually, the announcers did an excellent job of explaining why a "no call" was the correct call, and they used the replays to support their observation and analysis.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

Please realize that when a tacklers leads with his shoulder the head is usually in close proximity. Like Bison said, this definitely was not 'leading with the head'.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

Actually, if you stop the video at 0:53 you will see that the initial contact is shoulder to shoulder. Also you can see the helmet contact does not involve the crown of either player. The receiver takes a hit to the face mask mostly because he "dropped" to protect himself and the defender's point of contact is in the side (just about directly on the team logo). That's probably why you saw both players down. The receiver due to the whiplash effect of the hit (see his head snap back?) and the defender becase a shot like that to the side of the head can knock you out just as easily. So, you don't have a defenseless player (who braced for the hit), you don't have a hit with the crown, and you don't have initial helmet to helmet contact. Why should there be a flag?