NFL Touchback on Punts

[Bullycon]

My coworker had this question about the Colts-Chargers game and I wasn't sure exactly what the answer was.

On the Chargers final punt of the game, he believes that the Chargers player gained control of the ball while airborne, and that his foot hit the pylon before any part of his body hit the ground.

Now, I don't remember the replay of this punt, so I don't know exactly what happened. Just going by the one fuzzy video I saw on YouTube, I don't think he's right, but whatever. So forgetting the actual play, if the above scenario occurred, what is the ruling? Touchback? Or Colts ball on their own 1?

For the purposes of this discussion, the ball never breaks the plane of the goalline. The player never touches the ground in the endzone. The player jumps from the field of play, recovers the ball in the air after it has touched the ground at least once, and before he lands in bounds or out of bounds, his foot touches the pylon.

On a side note: I am correct that in both NFHS and NCAA the ball is dead at the point where it is recovered, 1st and 10 from the 1, right?

[HLin NC]

My understanding of NFL rules is that they consider a kick in the EZ if a K player touches the ball while in the EZ, no matter the location of the ball.

Consider this: we've probably all seen an NFL punt play where the gunner tries to bat the ball back but his foot is touching in the EZ even though the ball has not broken the plane. They will rule a touchback.

The pylon is out of bounds IN the endzone. The side of the pylon facing the opposing goal should be even with the goal line plane. When his foot touched the pylon, he was in the EZ and thus, I believe, under their rules would be a touchback. I don't recall this play.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Bullycon

My coworker had this question about the Colts-Chargers game and I wasn't sure exactly what the answer was.

On the Chargers final punt of the game, he believes that the Chargers player gained control of the ball while airborne, and that his foot hit the pylon before any part of his body hit the ground.

Now, I don't remember the replay of this punt, so I don't know exactly what happened. Just going by the one fuzzy video I saw on YouTube, I don't think he's right, but whatever. So forgetting the actual play, if the above scenario occurred, what is the ruling? Touchback? Or Colts ball on their own 1?

For the purposes of this discussion, the ball never breaks the plane of the goalline. The player never touches the ground in the endzone. The player jumps from the field of play, recovers the ball in the air after it has touched the ground at least once, and before he lands in bounds or out of bounds, his foot touches the pylon.

On a side note: I am correct that in both NFHS and NCAA the ball is dead at the point where it is recovered, 1st and 10 from the 1, right?

Your friend did not get a very good look at that play if that's the way he described it. I'm a Colts fan and have the game on DVR so I just watched that play again. A Chargers player does attemt to recover the ball while it was on the ground and rolling out of bounds (he was not airborn). From the only angle they provided, you don't get a great look at it but it appears the ball hit out of bounds at the 1 before he recovered it. As he continuned his momentum out of bounds (all while still on the ground), he does hit the pylon but it was after the ball became dead either by touching out of bounds or being recovered by a defender on the ground and then out of bounds. This was no doubt a dead ball at the 1.

To answer our hypothetical, if the player recovers the ball while airborn and then touches the pylon on the way down, I believe that is a touchback at all levels.

[HLin NC]

in HS it would be a touchback- its where the ball is, not the player.

[BigTex]

Is the pylon part of the ground? Can't you be above the endzone and bat the ball back into the field of play? If a player is trying to bat the ball back and kicks the pylon on his way up, is he considered to have touched the ground in the endzone?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by BigTex

Is the pylon part of the ground? Can't you be above the endzone and bat the ball back into the field of play? If a player is trying to bat the ball back and kicks the pylon on his way up, is he considered to have touched the ground in the endzone?

I've never heard the pylon as technically part of the ground, but it is considered out of bounds. Under Fed, during a kick the ball is dead as soon as it crosses the plane of the goal line so assuming the ball is in the end zone, you can't bat it back even if you never touched the end zone.

If the K player touches the pylon on the way up, he is technically out of bounds. If he then participates in the play, he is guilty of illegal participation which is a 15-yard penalty. Your example brings up an interesting thought though. He technically never returned to the field since I assume he continued his momentum out of bounds so I don't know that you can penalize him for illegal participation. I guess you could still consider him out of bounds and thus the ball is dead because it touched something out of bounds. The in-bounds spot would be the foremost point of the ball when it crossed the sideline. If that was beyond the plane of the goal line, it would be a touchback. Otherwise it would a very long field for R. I'd be curious to hear the thoughts of those smarter than me.

[Bullycon]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

in HS it would be a touchback- its where the ball is, not the player.

In the original post, I said the ball never breaks the plane.

The airborne K player recovers the ball, and while still airborne, his foot strikes the pylon. He then carries the ball out of bounds at the 1. The ball never breaks the plane of the goal line. In NFHS, this is R ball at the 1, because the position of the player doesn't matter.

In NFL, I'm wondering if striking the pylon technically puts the runner in the endzone, and therefore a touchback. Looks like most people think the answer is yes.

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

[HLin NC]

I think that is what I said conceerning the NFL. I referenced the Fed situation to answer your last question in the post.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Bullycon

In the original post, I said the ball never breaks the plane.

The airborne K player recovers the ball, and while still airborne, his foot strikes the pylon. He then carries the ball out of bounds at the 1. The ball never breaks the plane of the goal line. In NFHS, this is R ball at the 1, because the position of the player doesn't matter.

In NFL, I'm wondering if striking the pylon technically puts the runner in the endzone, and therefore a touchback. Looks like most people think the answer is yes.

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

The position of the player does not matter in relation to the end zone. But it does matter that this player is out of bounds when he contacts the ball. The ball is out of bounds when it contacts that player and the ball will be placed at the inbounds spot. I assume that is somewhere between the goal line and the 1 since you said the ball never reached the goal line. It's irrelevant where he lands because the ball is dead as soon as he touches it.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

The position of the player does not matter in relation to the end zone. But it does matter that this player is out of bounds when he contacts the ball. The ball is out of bounds when it contacts that player and the ball will be placed at the inbounds spot. I assume that is somewhere between the goal line and the 1 since you said the ball never reached the goal line. It's irrelevant where he lands because the ball is dead as soon as he touches it.

Agreed. (I agree with the entire post, but the red part is the crux.)