Return of the video play...

[insatty]

With all due respect to the senior official in Refbuz's association, that advice does not reflect the governing philosophy in Division 1 and the NFL. If Division 1 and NFL officials are not calling these fouls, why should HS ball be called differently? The whole idea of governing philosophies is to encourage officiating consistency and proper game management.

With all due respect to ajmc, the bold fonts he uses lead me to believe that he sees this block as worthy of a personal foul. I don't and I would bet that the current Division 1 supervisors would grade a IBW call here as "marginal," meaning that they could defend the call but counsel against it because the governing philosophy requires a restriction. We are not out there to throw flags, but to manage the game to ensure fairness and safety. The emotion that ajmc's post reflects is not an attribute of a football official that desires to move up.

[bcl1127]

Insatty - you talk about safety, how about the kid who gets blocked in the back and because it is from behind and not expecting, falls into the runners legs and rather than tackling the runner, snaps his neck because his head hits his knee.

A block in the back is dangerous at the HS level because the player is not ready for the impact. Say something here happened where the player who was blocked in the back got hurt, everyone would be saying that the flag was justified. Well, it should be justified anytime at this level.

This is not D1 or NFL, these are young kids who should be protected. If something is a foul it is a foul. just because the guy tackled the player by accident does not mean that the team committing the foul should be rewarded (yes rewarded because they are gaining ten yards). If the guy broke loose, the play would come back 10 yard back from the spot...so in reality you are penalizing the guy for MAKING the tackle.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by insatty

If Division 1 and NFL officials are not calling these fouls, why should HS ball be called differently?

Respectfully, because the game is not the same at the HS and DI levels.

[waltjp]

No flag. No block in the back.

[BoBo]

devils advocate lets say no flag and the kid hits the runner in a weird postion and gets hurt.

now what do we do

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BoBo

devils advocate lets say no flag and the kid hits the runner in a weird postion and gets hurt.

now what do we do

Maybe it is just me, but that should not matter. It either was a flag or it was not a flag based on the play, not who got hurt. Players get hurt no matter what we call or not.

I think it is hard to tell for sure if there was contact with the shoulder or the back clearly. It looks like the back, but not a real good angle in my opinion.

Lastly, the block did not free the player. The tackle was made with the block in question. I have no problem if the official passed on this because it did not affect the play.

Peace

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by BoBo

devils advocate lets say no flag and the kid hits the runner in a weird postion and gets hurt.

now what do we do

Same as we do on any other play when a player gets injured. Call time out and call for the trainers.

Stop the video at the point of contact. This is clearly in the shoulder, not the back. In fact, you can still see the numbers on the back of the defender's jersey as he's being hit.

Back to the original question, if this were a BIB I'd flag it regardless of whether the player who was blocked made the tackle or not.

[BuckeyeRef]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Same as we do on any other play when a player gets injured. Call time out and call for the trainers.

Stop the video at the point of contact. This is clearly in the shoulder, not the back. In fact, you can still see the numbers on the back of the defender's jersey as he's being hit.

Back to the original question, if this were a BIB I'd flag it regardless of whether the player who was blocked made the tackle or not.

While I disagree with your assessment of the block, I agree with your philosophy. If you don't think it is a BIB and call it that way, that is fine with me. However, to not throw a flag becuase it did not affect the play is not the reason to hold off on the flag.

I believe this is a block in the back and should be flagged regardless of whether the blocked player made the tackle or not. First, the block is pretty violent and potentially harmful. These types of blocks need to be discouraged. Second, if we don't call fouls just because they don't affect the play, where do we draw the line. When the right tackle gets his facemask intentionally grabbed and gets thrown to the ground, do we hold the flag because the play was a sweep left? It didn't affect the play, but it could lead to injury. I know holding is different, but because that is not likely to lead to injury there is a stated preference to avoid calling holding.

[FeetBallRef]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRef

While I disagree with your assessment of the block, I agree with your philosophy. If you don't think it is a BIB and call it that way, that is fine with me. However, to not throw a flag becuase it did not affect the play is not the reason to hold off on the flag.

I believe this is a block in the back and should be flagged regardless of whether the blocked player made the tackle or not. First, the block is pretty violent and potentially harmful. These types of blocks need to be discouraged. Second, if we don't call fouls just because they don't affect the play, where do we draw the line. When the right tackle gets his facemask intentionally grabbed and gets thrown to the ground, do we hold the flag because the play was a sweep left? It didn't affect the play, but it could lead to injury. I know holding is different, but because that is not likely to lead to injury there is a stated preference to avoid calling holding.

Best posting yet, AGREE 110%.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRef

While I disagree with your assessment of the block, I agree with your philosophy. If you don't think it is a BIB and call it that way, that is fine with me. However, to not throw a flag becuase it did not affect the play is not the reason to hold off on the flag.

I believe this is a block in the back and should be flagged regardless of whether the blocked player made the tackle or not. First, the block is pretty violent and potentially harmful. These types of blocks need to be discouraged. Second, if we don't call fouls just because they don't affect the play, where do we draw the line. When the right tackle gets his facemask intentionally grabbed and gets thrown to the ground, do we hold the flag because the play was a sweep left? It didn't affect the play, but it could lead to injury. I know holding is different, but because that is not likely to lead to injury there is a stated preference to avoid calling holding.

The only time I would not call a "technical" BIB is when the player actually makes the tackle. Personally I do not care what others do. I do not see a BIB in itself simply a violent or safety foul. For one thing, players run into each other all the time and I would not consider those a foul. It really comes down to your philosophy or what you have been taught. It even matters what others do in your area so that you fit that philosophy on some level. And this is the same on many levels as holding. I am not calling a very minor hold when the play is going in the other direction. That is a talk to just about every time. And in my opinion BIB do not automatically lead to injury. IF that is the logic, then any tackle from behind is a dangerous act. We are not talking about a clip here.

Peace

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by insatty

With all due respect to the senior official in Refbuz's association, that advice does not reflect the governing philosophy in Division 1 and the NFL. If Division 1 and NFL officials are not calling these fouls, why should HS ball be called differently? The whole idea of governing philosophies is to encourage officiating consistency and proper game management.

I am well aware of game management philosophies.

Would it change you opinion if I told you that the senior official that spoke with works FCS football and his boss assigns games for 8 of the top 25 FCS teams?

[Forksref]

BIB - Flag - Safety issue. Just because he made the tackle doesn't make it a safe play. My judgment is safe vs. unsafe not tackle vs. no tackle. tough time selling a no flag call on an injury.