Need help on live enforced as dead

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by Forksref

10-6 First paragraph, last sentence. Also, in third paragraph.

You are confusing "basic spot" with "spot of enforcement".

The "basic spot" is NEVER the spot of the foul.

[ajmc]

Excuse me, but you might want to read just a little bit further to NF: 10.6 "Enforcement Spots, All-But-One Principle", you'll find a number of references to the "spot of the foul".

[jontheref]

A different take...I may not be understanding this the way it is posed, but we have two different things here. The hit away from the ball --a hit on an unprotected or unsuspecting player--that is a live ball foul. It is nothing more than a personal foul. Penalize it at the spot of the foul. Yes, we are calling back the td. The live ball as a dead...is for example, the runner that dives into the endzone...or raises the ball above the head or otherwise draws attention to himself. That one we will count the td and administer from the dead ball spot.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Excuse me, but you might want to read just a little bit further to NF: 10.6 "Enforcement Spots, All-But-One Principle", you'll find a number of references to the "spot of the foul".

But you will never see the "spot of the foul" referred to as the "basic spot" nor the "basic spot" referred to as the "spot of the foul".

You're excused.

[ChickenOfNC]

Yes, but under the all but one principal, a foul on the offense which occurs behind the basic spot is enforced from the spot of the foul.

The play you described was a running play at the time of the foul. The basic spot on a running play is the end of the related run. The end of the run was the goal line. The personal foul occured behind the basic spot. Enforced from the spot of the foul.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Blue37

You are confusing "basic spot" with "spot of enforcement".

The "basic spot" is NEVER the spot of the foul.

By coincidence it could be. But that is not the issue. I was trying to point out where the ABO principle is described in the rule book.

[ajmc]

Don't want to beat a dead horse, Blue37, but what you are saying is simply incorrect. Read NF 10.6.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Don't want to beat a dead horse, Blue37, but what you are saying is simply incorrect. Read NF 10.6.

The only thing dead here is your comprehension.

10-6 is entitled ENFORCEMENT SPOTS.
10-4 is entitled BASIC SPOTS.

You will be a better official if you learn the difference between the two.

[sloth]

You won't find the answer that your looking for. The truth is, by the letter of the federation rule book, if the TD was not scored before the PF occured, you have to bring it back and asses the foul from the spot of the foul.

I had this exact same play this season. The only thing that helped me is that the ball carrier had either just crossed the line for a TD or it happend a second or two after the foul. Either way, it was close enough that I was able to just call it a dead ball PF.

Around here, calling this type of foul a "live ball PF treated as a dead ball PF" is common practice that is accepted by most coaches. Its one of those local interperations that really has no basis in the rule book, yet most officials are more than comfortable with the application.

I had a thread a month or so about the merits of this type of rules enforcement.

Question for the white hats.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by sloth

You won't find the answer that your looking for. The truth is, by the letter of the federation rule book, if the TD was not scored before the PF occured, you have to bring it back and asses the foul from the spot of the foul.

I had this exact same play this season. The only thing that helped me is that the ball carrier had either just crossed the line for a TD or it happend a second or two after the foul. Either way, it was close enough that I was able to just call it a dead ball PF.

Around here, calling this type of foul a "live ball PF treated as a dead ball PF" is common practice that is accepted by most coaches. Its one of those local interperations that really has no basis in the rule book, yet most officials are more than comfortable with the application.

I had a thread a month or so about the merits of this type of rules enforcement.

Question for the white hats.

Whenever we've had something like this, it's usually be applied as a dead ball foul. I guess if the runner was still at the 30 and the hit was at the 50, it would be hard to call it a dead ball foul but whenever I've seen it, there was no easy way to discern what happened first (score or foul). Two different officials in two very different parts of the field are seeing each part of the play. I believe Redding also gives general guidance to enforce as a dead ball foul in most cases.

Sloth...since you are in Indiana, please send me a PM. I'd like to ask you a few questions

[HawkeyeCubP]

The OP didn't state who the foul was on, so the enforcement (for NFHS and NCAA) would be from the succeeding spot if B committed the foul. Count the score, and A has the choice of enforcing the foul either on the try or the kickoff.

Or am I missing something really obvious here?

Edited to include: ljdave mentioned this.