Question for the white hats.

[sloth]

As a first year referee, I wanted to bounch this off some more seasoned officials.

I have a long run by A that goes for a score. While the runner was somewhere between the 10 and goal line; I see that around the 40 yard line (approx. 30 yards behind the ball carrier) an A lineman give a decleating block (completely clean) against a B player that was jogging. Obviously, I threw the flag. I applied it as a dead ball persoanl foul. I know that by the rule book, if it was a live ball foul we're bringing it back to the spot of the foul.

Any other referees in that situation willing to squint and make a live ball personal foul a dead ball personal foul...provided that the foul has no bearing on the play and the foul is imminant within a second or two?

[DesertZebra]

I've had this happen numerous times, especially at the pee-wee levels. We call it a 'live ball foul treated as a dead ball foul'. Coaches (on both sides) usually do not have a problem with the call when you explain it to them.

Also remember, even if it's legal a block, it could also be considered flagrant.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by sloth

As a first year referee, I wanted to bounch this off some more seasoned officials.

I have a long run by A that goes for a score. While the runner was somewhere between the 10 and goal line; I see that around the 40 yard line (approx. 30 yards behind the ball carrier) an A lineman give a decleating block (completely clean) against a B player that was jogging. Obviously, I threw the flag. I applied it as a dead ball persoanl foul. I know that by the rule book, if it was a live ball foul we're bringing it back to the spot of the foul.

Any other referees in that situation willing to squint and make a live ball personal foul a dead ball personal foul...provided that the foul has no bearing on the play and the foul is imminant within a second or two?

They chewed me out here as a fan a few months ago for even suggesting that in doubtful cases (where it's a difficult call whether the foul or TD occurred 1st) the presumption of a dead ball foul should be made. And even after one poster who is an official said his association says to lean toward dead ball foul.

My argument was that, first of all it frequently would be a difficult timing call for the official with coverage, second that looking away to see if the ball was still alive distracts one from watching for whether the fouled player retaliates, and third that for the same type of foul, the spot of the foul varies the enforcement spot enormously. The danger to or ill will engendered in the player of B would've been exactly the same had the foul been 30 or 70 yards behind the ball, and the danger or insult to the player of B was the foul's only effect, so why should there effectively be a 40 yard difference in the penalties?

Robert

[Mike L]

However, the other side of the coin is nothing stops that kind of BS faster than taking 6 pts off the board.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Mike L

However, the other side of the coin is nothing stops that kind of BS faster than taking 6 pts off the board.

But that'd be an argument for increasing every type of penalty the game has. You could deduct 6 points from a team's score for every cheap shot.

[Mike L]

No it wouldn't. It's an argument for enforcing the penalty as per the current rule set. It's a live ball foul by the offense behind the basic spot. I have no problem eliminating the "philosphy" of only calling penalties at the point of attack/effect the play when an egrigious safety related foul like this happens. Today is not the football of yore when it was mayhem on the field. What if the next hit causes serious injury because someone decides risking only the PAT is worth payback?

[sloth]

I can see both sides of this one. I sort of go back and forth on what the right thing to do actually is, in the spirit of fair play. I went as far as to ask a couple friends of mine that are HS head coaches (we're church deacons together). As I expected, their first question to me was "...it would depend if I was on offense or defense".

Calling a live ball foul would have resulted in 6 points off the board and put the offense back on the 45-50 yard line. Is that fair punishment? I don't know.

[OverAndBack]

More from the philosophies of my state:

"Obviously out of the play - Blocking an opponent 10 yards or more behind the runner shall be deemed unnecessary roughness."

But:

"For late hits away from the ball near the end of the play, lean towards dead-ball rather than live-ball foul."

I agree, it'd be the last time someone on that team (and probably the other team) did that if you made it live-ball and took the points off the board and it would sure send a message.

If it's a cheap shot, I think you need to nail it. A defender who's jogging 30 yards behind the ballcarrier who's gone isn't expecting to be blocked off his feet.

[Texas Aggie]

NCAA: they've made situations like this a point of emphasis this year and it is to be called a personal foul. What you call a "clean" block isn't really clean at all. I had virtually the same thing happen last night, except the block was near the line on a running play that went about 3-5 yards. It was unnecessary, the player being blocked made no attempt to further participate, and while it wasn't technically after the play (more like simultaneous with the end of it), we flagged it. I don't know what Fed says, but the NCAA rule is clear: if he makes no effort to participate in the play, you better not decleat him.

I had a back judge flag a block in the back on the punting team after the receiving team had gained possession and even close to the end of the play. We told him he needed to fit that foul into a personal foul category -- if it fits there -- or not have a call. You don't want to call a BIB. Either nail him or you have nothing.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by sloth

Is that fair punishment? I don't know.

There are many rules that we could consider unfair but they should still be enforced. Its harsh but then so is OPI.

One thing is for sure, enforcing as a live ball foul really nips that activity in the bud quickly. A competent coach will get tired of having touchdowns called back because of completely unecessary and stupid hits.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Welpe

There are many rules that we could consider unfair but they should still be enforced. Its harsh but then so is OPI.

One thing is for sure, enforcing as a live ball foul really nips that activity in the bud quickly. A competent coach will get tired of having touchdowns called back because of completely unecessary and stupid hits.

A friend of mine and I were discussing your OPI penalty. It is very harsh! We almost couldn't believe it!

[ajmc]

Sloth, I think your dilemna may be caused by your trying to bite off more than you can chew. Your job title does't include deciding what is fair punishment, or not, neither does the job title of "coach", so their input on the question is totally immaterial.

We shouldn't presume that the rule makers didn't fully contemplate this type situation when designing these rules, so we should deal with what we're given. Generally, football rules are intended to be simply black, or white. As situations of gray develop, where necessary and appropriate, exceptions are included to cover significant deviations.

If you're looking for a fudge factor, the question of whether or not the runner was still actually in the field of play when the foul was committed is an option, but the answer is clear, the rules don't differentiate between a cheap shot on a breakaway versus a cheap shot anywhere else. Possibly the idea is to really enforce the notion that cheap shots, wherever they take place, are simply not acceptable.

Will coaches whine and feint shock and disbelief? Sometimes, but what difference should that make. A smart coach will use the example as a teaching moment that will likely prevent such action from ever taking place again. You ALWAYS have to consider the "other side of the coin".

What will be the reaction to your credibility by the offended team? Will they judge you as being biased? Will they take you decision as an excuse to levy their own form of retaliation? Will the player who was fouled be motivated to seek retaliation? Whichever decision you make, there will be consequences some of which are known and controllable, others over which you have no idea of, or control over. When following the rule, consequences seem much more predictable.

One can call it anything they want, describing it as a, "'live ball foul treated as a dead ball foul", is no more accurate than calling it, "coping out because you were afraid of making someone unhappy". It's a decision each of us have to make in all sorts of circumstances, most not as graphic as the question suggests.

[Rich]

I lean towards enforcing it as a LIVE ball foul if there is any doubt. Of course, I don't see calling back a TD as a big deal. Don't foul and we won't be having that discussion.

We had a IBB on a kick-return TD last night. Kids on the sidelines ran onto the field, excited, and the L almost ran into them going down the field. 25 yards in penalties (10+15) later.....

[kdf5]

I think if your association or "local practice" is to leave your sack in the locker room, then hang it up. If it's live ball then call it that. If not, then go to the succeeding spot but don't be afraid of getting booed. I agree wholeheartedly with ajmc. Don't forget that it's the National Federation of High Schools that write these rules. The very schools you are officiating. It's their rule, not yours.

[big_houn]

Hey Guys, listen I have a question about celebration penalties and how it is applied. So here is the situation

The team has scored the TD. Line up for the p.a.t (2 point conversion), make the 2-point conversion, whistle blows and the play is over. The running back spins the ball in the end zone and draw an excessive celebration call. Now, is the penalty assessed on the kickoff, or do the official take the two points off the score board, assess the 15 yard penalty and force the team to retry the p.a.t..

Now, I was under the impression that once the play was over and the whistle is blown and an unsportsman like celebration penalty happens the penalty yardage is assessed on the kickoff.

I can understand if the penalty happen after the TD, then the penalty is assessed on the p.a.t.. But the penalty happened after the 2-point conversion. Can some please shed some light this for me.....Thanks
!