KO OOB Play (LSU-FL) Video

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Seems yours is a minority opinion.

No, it's not. This is a very basic rule. If an inbounds R player touches a kick before the kick goes out of bounds, it is not a foul for free kick out of bounds. Its the same in both Federation and the NCAA.

I do not believe video is conclusive as to what happened here, so it is based upon the judgment of the official on the field.

Mike, was this play reviewed? I didn't see this part of the game.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Do you even know the NCAA rules?

I think that answer is obvious.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Seems yours is a minority opinion.
In light of what actually happened I wonder how you will explain it if you call it that way.

My guess is that replay will change it.

The first foot was inbounds and the ball was touched by the Team B player, therefore is should not be a foul. Was the ball touched? Yes. Was that player who touched the ball inbounds? Yes.

Below is the rule copied and pasted from the NCAA rules. As you can see the ball must be UNTOUCHED (not touched) by team B. In this play it was touched.

SECTION 2. Free Kick Out of Bounds
Kicking Team
ARTICLE 1. A free kick out of bounds between the goal lines untouched by an
inbounds player of Team B is a foul.

[TXMike]

Sme strange things on this play. #1 - The deep official (L) flagged it as a kick OOB However, the returner's back was to him and the ball was caught in front of the receiver so there is no way the deep guy knew when the ball was actually tocuhed. The F who was looking straight at it from in front of the returner did not flag. In all fairness, he was considerably further away than the L but he is the only one who would have been able to assess where the returner's feet were when he first touched the ball.

#2 - LSU lined up and was going to run a play but took so long they got a dela of game penalty. The UF coach had been going nuts all during the time form when flag was thrown for the kick OOB until the flag was thrown for delay. He then decided to challenge the call so game was stopped for the replay. Replay "confirmed the call on the field"

The point I am trying to make is not on this specific play it is on the concept of whether or not a kick should be declared OOB if the "catch" is not completed until the player is OOB. I say, if you are able to judge that the player had a foot inbounds when he first touches the ball, but then he completes the catch and steps with other foot OOB, it is NOT a kick OOB.

The video I have seen on this specific play does not clearly show whether the left foot was on the ground or not when the ball came into the receiver's cradled arms. I would sure like to know what the F saw.

[Brett]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

The first foot was inbounds and the ball was touched by the Team B player, therefore is should not be a foul. Was the ball touched? Yes. Was that player who touched the ball inbounds? Yes.

Below is the rule copied and pasted from the NCAA rules. As you can see the ball must be UNTOUCHED (not touched) by team B. In this play it was touched.

SECTION 2. Free Kick Out of Bounds
Kicking Team
ARTICLE 1. A free kick out of bounds between the goal lines untouched by an
inbounds player of Team B is a foul.

I don't thing they ruled the first foot inbounds. I think they ruled both feet off the ground.

SECTION 2. Free Kick Out of Bounds
Kicking Team—ARTICLE 1
Approved Ruling 6-2-1

[snip]

IV. Airborne B17 has leaped from inbounds and is the first player to
touch Team A’s free kick when he receives the ball. He subsequently
lands out of bounds with the ball in his possession. RULING: Foul,
free kick out of bounds. Team B has these options: it may accept a
five-yard penalty at the previous spot with Team A re-kicking; snap
the ball at its 40-yard line at the inbounds spot (assuming the free
kick was from the 30-yard line); or snap the ball at the inbounds spot
five yards from where the ball crossed the sideline.

[TXMike]

The returner pretty clearly "skipped" and was completly airborne at one point. The issue is: 1 - Did both feet come to ground at same time or did left come to ground before right? 2 - when the ball was first being touched by the returner was he airborne or was his left foot on the ground?

It is clear the right foot did not come to ground until he was in possession. What is not clear is the status of the left foot and that is critical IMHO

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Do you even know the NCAA rules?

We know how you would rule.

How do you square that with what actually happened?

[TXMike]

By "what actually happened" do you mean what they ruled and how they handled or do you mean what really happened, regardless of how it was ruled?

I cannot tell you what they ruled because I still do not know why the F had no flag (even though he was the only one who could see ball and feet at the same time). I know what the L ruled and what the R did based on that but have no idea what input, if any, the F had.

I also do not know what views the replay official had. If all he had was what we at home had, there is NO WAY he could "confirm" the call on the field.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by TXMike

By "what actually happened" do you mean what they ruled and how they handled or do you mean what really happened, regardless of how it was ruled?

I cannot tell you what they ruled because I still do not know why the F had no flag (even though he was the only one who could see ball and feet at the same time). I know what the L ruled and what the R did based on that but have no idea what input, if any, the F had.

I also do not know what views the replay official had. If all he had was what we at home had, there is NO WAY he could "confirm" the call on the field.

We talked about this last night at our college study group and general consensus was this was a valid call. It was so close that ruling he had possession with one foot down and then put the other foot down was being too technical. If he had caught the ball and then took a step to get his other foot out of bounds, then it would have been LSU's ball at the spot.

I think you can make valid arguments either way but I lean toward the call the officials made.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

If he had caught the ball and then took a step to get his other foot out of bounds, then it would have been LSU's ball at the spot.

.

I think that is exactly the right interpretation.

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

We talked about this last night at our college study group and general consensus was this was a valid call. It was so close that ruling he had possession with one foot down and then put the other foot down was being too technical. If he had caught the ball and then took a step to get his other foot out of bounds, then it would have been LSU's ball at the spot.

I think you can make valid arguments either way but I lean toward the call the officials made.

So if this was a pass you would rule incompletion as opposed to completion/interception?

The thing that I really do not understand on this specific play is the L, who has absolutely NO view of the ball, making the call over the F who had feet and ball.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

It was so close that ruling he had possession with one foot down and then put the other foot down was being too technical.

That doesn't make sense to me. With the amount of detail insant replay examines, it would seem that the the technical details in situations such as this matter now more than ever.

[DadofTwins]

This play was similar to one of my favorite "IBM Presents: You Make the Call" segments. They showed a kick returner catching a kickoff while straddling the sideline, then taking off up field. As my dad and I discussed whether the ball should be placed at the 1 (where he caught it) or where he was tackled, the announcer came back from commercial to say it was a kick-off out of bounds and the kicking team re-kicked.

I don't remember whether they specified NFL or NCAA rules, and as a soccer guy I don't know enough of the football rule book to know if it makes a difference.

Does anybody else remember these commercials?

Just me, then?

OK.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by TXMike

So if this was a pass you would rule incompletion as opposed to completion/interception?

The thing that I really do not understand on this specific play is the L, who has absolutely NO view of the ball, making the call over the F who had feet and ball.

It wasn't a pass, it was a free kick. And the position of the ball is irrelevant because the player was ruled out of bounds when he caught the ball.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by DadofTwins

This play was similar to one of my favorite "IBM Presents: You Make the Call" segments. They showed a kick returner catching a kickoff while straddling the sideline, then taking off up field. As my dad and I discussed whether the ball should be placed at the 1 (where he caught it) or where he was tackled, the announcer came back from commercial to say it was a kick-off out of bounds and the kicking team re-kicked.

I don't remember whether they specified NFL or NCAA rules, and as a soccer guy I don't know enough of the football rule book to know if it makes a difference.

Does anybody else remember these commercials?

Just me, then?

OK.

I remember those commericals. ALCOA was the sponsor and they were in NFL games.