Wrong Ball Play

[ppaltice]

When I was a young official, this play was rampant in Louisiana (before K State did it). It was deemed legal back then (1996 I think). Fortunately everyone has decided this is illegal.

They key is you cannot use a nonplayer (be it a coach, substitute or replaced player) to deceive the opponent.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

They key is you cannot use a nonplayer (be it a coach, substitute or replaced player) to deceive the opponent.

No, I don't think that's an equivalent statement of the rule.

For one thing, a player of A could indicate a "problem" and that the snap was not imminent without involving a non-player, and it would be just as illegal. It could be "Is this the ball we use?" or "Is my chin strap on right?" and involve no more than a huddle between 2 players.

For another, a non-player on the sideline could falsely shout something like, "Throw it to Zev.", and it would be legal. Maybe even shout a false count of the play or game clock, but I'm less sure about that.

The rule in question addresses a specific sort of deception that has been ruled unfair, and should not be extended by interpret'n to cover other forms of deception, nor narrowed to cover only those involving ostensible communication with non-players.

Robert

[bigjohn]

no one has to say anything. ACTIONS or VERBIAGE


actions or verbiage designed to confuse



A22 acts as if he has injured a ankle but refuses assistance when asked by the referee if he is ok. during the next play he limps but doesn't participate directly in the play. On the next play, A22 goes in motion with a very severe limp, but at the snap he tears down the field, with a miracle cure and catches a long pass? Any problems? Any foul?

[Texas Aggie]

NCAA: 2 choices -- no equipment may be used to confuse the opponent, and no obviously unfair act not specifically covered may be used. We're shutting down the play. Hopefully the coach asks the question pregame and we can stop it, but if it happens and we can go with an illegal snap, we'll do that. Otherwise, 15 yards.

I'll take my chances in allowing the coach to defend his play if he complains to the UIL. This isn't a difficult one. The intent of the rules is that this play is illegal.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

A22 acts as if he has injured a ankle but refuses assistance when asked by the referee if he is ok. during the next play he limps but doesn't participate directly in the play. On the next play, A22 goes in motion with a very severe limp, but at the snap he tears down the field, with a miracle cure and catches a long pass? Any problems? Any foul?

Assuming he's in motion as a receiver normally would go in motion and not limping towards his bench like he's trying to get off the field and motioning for a substitute...

Play on. No problem. No foul.

What about a limping receiver simply going in motion confuses the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent?

[bigjohn]

NFHS Forum: What is the rule coverage for fake injury?

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

NFHS Forum: What is the rule coverage for fake injury?

I read that thread two years ago. I thought you might have some additional thoughts.

[bigjohn]

It is from the Redding guide. That means nothing, right?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

What about a limping receiver simply going in motion confuses the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent?

As long as the offense isn't using the player in a pretend substitution, then I'm going with "that's nothing".

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

no one has to say anything. ACTIONS or VERBIAGE

actions or verbiage designed to confuse

A22 acts as if he has injured a ankle but refuses assistance when asked by the referee if he is ok. during the next play he limps but doesn't participate directly in the play. On the next play, A22 goes in motion with a very severe limp, but at the snap he tears down the field, with a miracle cure and catches a long pass? Any problems? Any foul?

This is a play where I think you are going to get a very split answer. There is no absolute coverage of this play in the rule book and Reddigs is only a guide. I see a difference in faking the injury to a point where the defense doesn't think the snap is imminent and just a hobbling player in motion. For me, the former gets a flag and the latter does not.

[sloth]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

This is a play where I think you are going to get a very split answer. There is no absolute coverage of this play in the rule book and Reddigs is only a guide. I see a difference in faking the injury to a point where the defense doesn't think the snap is imminent and just a hobbling player in motion. For me, the former gets a flag and the latter does not.

I'll make it even easier. As the white hat, I'm not going to allow a player whom is visably hurt to play. It's a huge liability for my and my crew and if it's visable enough for B to notice, then I or my other officials had also better notice.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by sloth

I'll make it even easier. As the white hat, I'm not going to allow a player whom is visably hurt to play. It's a huge liability for my and my crew and if it's visable enough for B to notice, then I or my other officials had also better notice.

I agree. I see a player hobbling along to the point it appears he's injured to me, I'm calling an injury time out and off he goes. And I pity the coach that comes up to me to complain it was all an act & I ruined his "play".

[Reffing Rev.]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

For another, a non-player on the sideline could falsely shout something like, "Throw it to Zev.", and it would be legal. Maybe even shout a false count of the play or game clock, but I'm less sure about that.


Robert

Year before last working a game in nw MO all of the first half whenever BJ started his count A's entire sideline would start counting down from 5, I guess so that A would snap the ball and not get the DOG. 4th quarter the opponents break the huddle after what seems like an eternity, and as they come to the line they start counting (BJ has not counted yet), the offense rushes the snap before they are all set. I killed it with a USC on the defense for "false counting" Right or wrong, I stick with that call, clearly the defense was trying to confuse their opponent in a way not allowed by rules.

Some might say that the offense has the responsibility to know the play clock and watch the BJ rather than listen to the defense, but I could say they defense should watch the snap and not listen to the "where's the tee play" too, but i digress.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Year before last working a game in nw MO all of the first half whenever BJ started his count A's entire sideline would start counting down from 5, I guess so that A would snap the ball and not get the DOG. 4th quarter the opponents break the huddle after what seems like an eternity, and as they come to the line they start counting (BJ has not counted yet), the offense rushes the snap before they are all set. I killed it with a USC on the defense for "false counting" Right or wrong, I stick with that call, clearly the defense was trying to confuse their opponent in a way not allowed by rules.

Some might say that the offense has the responsibility to know the play clock and watch the BJ rather than listen to the defense, but I could say they defense should watch the snap and not listen to the "where's the tee play" too, but i digress.

Same thing, different park:

Blue picks White's pocket at the defensive 3-point line. White bench starts to go "5.... 4.... 3.... 2...." and Blue shots just across half and on a breakaway. I waited until the shot was released, and then: "Whack!"

At my whistle, the clock read 0:05. The Blue player totally had time to take it in for an uncontested layup.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Year before last working a game in nw MO all of the first half whenever BJ started his count A's entire sideline would start counting down from 5, I guess so that A would snap the ball and not get the DOG. 4th quarter the opponents break the huddle after what seems like an eternity, and as they come to the line they start counting (BJ has not counted yet), the offense rushes the snap before they are all set. I killed it with a USC on the defense for "false counting" Right or wrong, I stick with that call, clearly the defense was trying to confuse their opponent in a way not allowed by rules.

Some might say that the offense has the responsibility to know the play clock and watch the BJ rather than listen to the defense, but I could say they defense should watch the snap and not listen to the "where's the tee play" too, but i digress.

Rule 9-5-1d covers this situation. This is the rule for USC and the example is "using disconcerting acts or words prior to the snap in an attempt to interfere with A's signals or movements".