substitution vs participation

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Jimmie24

If the coach tells you he has twelve, you still have to count. If during the count the snap happens, then it is IP. Rules are rules, we are there to enforce them. Not change them as this play has changed.

So it's no longer dangerous to have 12 guys on the field? If somebody got hurt in that situation, you'll have an awful hard time sleeping that night.

Look at this another way, say they have no timeouts left. And they realize a few seconds before the snap that they have too many and they aren't going to be able to get the guys off. In your mind is there anyway for there to be a dead ball foul if you don't count fast?
________
Ocean View Condo Pattaya

[Jimmie24]

How is the fact that there are 12 guys on the field my problem? My job is to enforce the rules as they are written. The rule is pretty clear here. If I don't get to 12 before the snap, I have participation. If I can get the count right before the snap, I am killing the play. Like has been stated, if I count 12, I am going to recount. In this situation, there are usually two officials counting the defense. Are you saying the other guy was sticking it to this team too?

Your statement about me sleeping at night? No, I will sleep well. I will enforce the rules as they are written. Agree with them or disagree with them. They will be enforced.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by Jimmie24

Like has been stated, if I count 12, I am going to recount.

If I count 12, I'm counting again. Twice.

If I count 10, I'm counting again. Once. And checking with my partner who's also counting.

I hope I have time to do all this, but my first priority is to get it right, not to get it inside a coach's timeframe. If he counts faster than me, bully for him. But I have a lot of stuff I have to do between snaps.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by youngump

So it's no longer dangerous to have 12 guys on the field? If somebody got hurt in that situation, you'll have an awful hard time sleeping that night.

Look at this another way, say they have no timeouts left. And they realize a few seconds before the snap that they have too many and they aren't going to be able to get the guys off. In your mind is there anyway for there to be a dead ball foul if you don't count fast?

There is no basis for us to stop the play in order to complete the count. Remember there are two teams on the field. Why should we hold back the offense from making a play just because the defense "may" have substituted incorrectly. Remember you can only call what you see. If you don't see 12 men you can't call it until you do.

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by youngump

So it's no longer dangerous to have 12 guys on the field? If somebody got hurt in that situation, you'll have an awful hard time sleeping that night.

I think you are confusing 2 things here...they are: (1) blatanly ignoring the count before the play (in which case, yes, it is partially the official's fault for letting 12 be out there for the play) and (2) not finishing your count for whatever reason (in which case, it is a very sad thing if a player get hurts, but certainly is not the fault of the official). Going back to the OP, it still seems to be a failure to finish the count in time.

Look at this another way, say they have no timeouts left. And they realize a few seconds before the snap that they have too many and they aren't going to be able to get the guys off. In your mind is there anyway for there to be a dead ball foul if you don't count fast?

I'm really not sure what this has to do with the first part of your post, but if you are only part of they way through the count when the snap occurs, it would be IP for 12 on the field.