substitution vs participation

[mikesears]

I wonder if maybe the officials were using some NCAA conferences' philosophy of not calling a foul on the defense until after the snap beause the defense can call a timeout to correct the foul. If so, the officials were incorrect to do so. From the description (and we only got one side of the story here), it sounds like nobody involved handled this very well.

[wisref2]

I was the first to respond to this question and it was a pretty simple answer, can't believe it's led to such a discussion. Maybe this will be the last, who knows.

Coach - the refs got it right whether you like it or not. Live with it. (blow the ready for play and let's get on with the game)

[youngump]

Originally Posted by wisref2

I was the first to respond to this question and it was a pretty simple answer, can't believe it's led to such a discussion. Maybe this will be the last, who knows.

Coach - the refs got it right whether you like it or not. Live with it. (blow the ready for play and let's get on with the game)

So I don't work the oblongated ball, but I do follow a bunch of your discussions from where I belong on the forum... mind if I ask a question that's bothering me in this discussion?

So, B1 illegally enters the field. That broke a rule. The official notices this either a) just as the ball is snapped or b) just before the ball is snapped or c) well before the ball is snapped. In this discussion c is a 5 yard dead ball foul. a or b are 15 yard live ball fouls.

Now what bothers me is that I can't think of an analagous situation in any sport where the time the official notes the infraction determines it's severity without the player doing anything else.

There are a couple of close ones that are about preventative officiating but they all seem to involve when we notice relative to what the illegal player did.

Why isn't this (and the casebook seems clear to me that you are all right that it isn't) a case where when after the snap you get to 12 you blow it dead because you realize a foul occurred before the snap. (If you're not sure where it occurred that's another thing... I mean the case where you're sure there were no late substitutions and are sure they committed a dead ball foul.)

It's bothersome that the officials error makes the penalty much worse.
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Club Royal Condos Wong Amat

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by youngump

Why isn't this (and the casebook seems clear to me that you are all right that it isn't) a case where when after the snap you get to 12 you blow it dead because you realize a foul occurred before the snap. (If you're not sure where it occurred that's another thing... I mean the case where you're sure there were no late substitutions and are sure they committed a dead ball foul.)

It's bothersome that the officials error makes the penalty much worse.

Not a football official - just a coach, but I fail to see how this is the official's error. If I can't get my personnel on and off the field when I need to, that's on me and my coaching staff and we need to do a better job.

As far as the difference in the penalties (again, this is not a rules interp, just a point of view from the sideline), having 12 players participate in the play can be extremely dangerous. You've got an extra body out there who won't be blocked and can get a nasty shot at the player with the ball because of that. It should be a harsher penalty.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by youngump

So I don't work the oblongated ball, but I do follow a bunch of your discussions from where I belong on the forum... mind if I ask a question that's bothering me in this discussion?

So, B1 illegally enters the field. That broke a rule. The official notices this either a) just as the ball is snapped or b) just before the ball is snapped or c) well before the ball is snapped. In this discussion c is a 5 yard dead ball foul. a or b are 15 yard live ball fouls.

Now what bothers me is that I can't think of an analagous situation in any sport where the time the official notes the infraction determines it's severity without the player doing anything else.

There are a couple of close ones that are about preventative officiating but they all seem to involve when we notice relative to what the illegal player did.

Why isn't this (and the casebook seems clear to me that you are all right that it isn't) a case where when after the snap you get to 12 you blow it dead because you realize a foul occurred before the snap. (If you're not sure where it occurred that's another thing... I mean the case where you're sure there were no late substitutions and are sure they committed a dead ball foul.)

It's bothersome that the officials error makes the penalty much worse.

Youngump asks a great question and the answer is simple you can stop play after it starts and call the dead ball foul. It is not only suggested in the substitution rule it also is the safest thing to do. That’s why participation carries a higher penalty: if you run on after play begins it may be difficult to catch and is dangerous. That’s why substitution is a 5 yard penalty because it occurs outside of play and causes no danger.


*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)

In your description of your play, the player makes no attempt to leave the field = 3.7 Comment a. does not apply.

[Jimmie24]

What I find amazing is that a certain coach has been shown the rule, over and over. He has seen the case play yet still can not get over himself. IF he were as he said an official and part of the fraternity wouldn't he understand this stuff easier? Or maybe, being a part of the fraternity, he expects to be able to get away with stuff? Rules are rules. This one is pretty plainly stated. If he talked to the official on the sideline as densly as he speaks here, seriously how long would he stay?

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by Jimmie24

IF he were as he said an official and part of the fraternity wouldn't he understand this stuff easier?

There are a couple of pee wee leagues in my area that use the commissioner's son or brother-in-law or mechanic or whoever is available. Those guys have no current rule books and just call what they see on TV. Maybe he is one of them. That would explain a few things!

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Youngump asks a great question and the answer is simple you can stop play after it starts and call the dead ball foul.

*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)

Since when can we stop play after it starts? Please do not quote from outdated books. Get yourself a 2008 rulebook and casebook and start reading for comprehension.

[Jimmie24]

Wouldn't we go into the fundamentals. No live-ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Since when can we stop play after it starts? Please do not quote from outdated books. Get yourself a 2008 rulebook and casebook and start reading for comprehension.

Again, not my game, but it happens all of the time whether the rule book supports it or not. Whistle, mic comes on, dead ball, delay of game. Whistle, mic, Dead ball, fault start.

I think the analogy I'm making is this: Suppose in a basketball game they made backcourt a technical foul instead of a violation. A player catches the ball out of bounds in the backcourt and then steps in. Because this is so hard to follow in realtime (I know; but bear with me), he doesn't realize that the player is out of bounds until after he whistles the backcourt violation. But he's sure he didn't get there legally.

Or put another way in this scenario the only way the player can commit violation two is by getting away with violation one. I guess that's not so weird since he got away with something. But that's what's been bothering me.
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[Jimmie24]

Originally Posted by youngump

Again, not my game, but it happens all of the time whether the rule book supports it or not. Whistle, mic comes on, dead ball, delay of game. Whistle, mic, Dead ball, fault start.

I think the analogy I'm making is this: Suppose in a basketball game they made backcourt a technical foul instead of a violation. A player catches the ball out of bounds in the backcourt and then steps in. Because this is so hard to follow in realtime (I know; but bear with me), he doesn't realize that the player is out of bounds until after he whistles the backcourt violation. But he's sure he didn't get there legally.

Or put another way in this scenario the only way the player can commit violation two is by getting away with violation one. I guess that's not so weird since he got away with something. But that's what's been bothering me.

You answered it already, those are dead ball fouls. A dead ball foul we do not allow the ball to become live.

[PA-28-181]

Coach,
I have read all your posts here & it looks like you story is changing to meet your request. You need to remember the officials are not there to screw you.

Also from reading this long thread it looks like you are also quoting old rule & case books. I would suggest next year when you are requested to attend a rules meeting you go. Your interpretation of the rule is wrong, period.

Regardless to how you feel, you had 12 players on the field. For whatever reason the count was not done until right before the snap, I know if I count 12 I do a recount. After the snap IT IS A LIVE BALL FOUL.

This whole thread reinforces my thought that if coaches put as much effort into knowing the rules, as they do into tell the officials they are wrong you might get what we are doing every Friday night.

Also Daggo66 wrote this "Rule 3.7.1 Situation B. It's on page 27. The case book explains the rule with real life situations. Yours is right there in black and white. I believe this is the part where you either say Mea Culpa or are never heard from again." read that rule.

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Youngump asks a great question and the answer is simple you can stop play after it starts and call the dead ball foul. It is not only suggested in the substitution rule it also is the safest thing to do. That’s why participation carries a higher penalty: if you run on after play begins it may be difficult to catch and is dangerous. That’s why substitution is a 5 yard penalty because it occurs outside of play and causes no danger.


*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by PA-28-181

You need to remember the officials are not there to screw you.

That's a problem that, unfortunately, is tough for us as officials to overcome. There's too much animosity between coaches and officials, in part (but not totally) because of a misunderstanding about what we're trying to do and our motivations.

I've not coached, so I'm not going to try to read a coach's mind or detect his motivations for things, yet, too often, coaches think they know what we're thinking or what our objectives and reasons for doing things are.

Not all take it to the extreme of "they're out to screw us," but I don't believe that as many coaches as we'd like look at us as partners in the educational process (which I believe we all are).

Trust me - we're not in it for the money or the glory and ain't 1% of us going to the NFL, so it's not for that, either.

I don't know what the solution is. Just something that has always struck me out the relationship between coaches and officials (and not just in football).

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by youngump

Now what bothers me is that I can't think of an analagous situation in any sport where the time the official notes the infraction determines it's severity without the player doing anything else.

A good example would be basketball where before I hand the ball for a throw-in I notice that there is one too many players. I tell the extra player to get off and don't start the play. If I miscount, then the play continues and we could have a technical for too many players participating. Because I noticed the sixth player later means a foul for the team as opposed to none.