substitution vs participation

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I’m looking right at it. You are looking right at it. If it can’t possibly exist I would like to know why and I will discard this book.

Can you reference the exact language where it says "3 seconds" constitutes "immediately?" Keep looking, because you will not find it.

BTW, there is no 3-7 Comment. There is a 3.7 Comment.

Peace

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Can you reference the exact language where it says "3 seconds" constitutes "immediately?" Keep looking, because you will not find it.

BTW, there is no 3-7 Comment. There is a 3.7 Comment.

Peace

OK, the following quotation is the reference where the exact language says "3 seconds" constitutes "immediately.”
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Case Book: *3-7 COMMENT; *3.7.3 A & B; *9.6 COMMENT; *9.6.1D; *9.6.4C
Illegal substitution is a dead ball five yard foul and will be called if there are more than 11 defensive players on the field and the "extra players" (substitutes) are not making a bona fide attempt to get off the field.

Illegal Participation is a live ball 15 yard foul and occurs once the ball is snapped with more than 11 players on a side. The reason officials try to enforce the illegal substitution is because it is a 5 yard foul rather than the 15 yard foul.

The defense do not have "until the ball is snapped" to complete their substitution, a substitute must replace a player immediately. Immediately has been defined as "within 3 seconds". Hence the substitute must replace the player within 3 seconds of going to the defensive huddle or to the vicinity of the replaced player
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BTW it says Case Book: *3-7 COMMENT; [U]*3.7.3[/U] A & B; *9.6 COMMENT; *9.6.1D; *9.6.4C

[JugglingReferee]

I got the 85th post in this thread. Ocho Cinco is my jersey number!

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I got the 85th post in this thread. Ocho Cinco is my jersey number!

Only counts if you change your name in Florida.

[JRutledge]

I am looking at the casebook and your references (The 2008 National Federation Football Casebook). There is not one comment about "3 seconds" in this book under those references.

And under reference 3.7.1 Situation B, Comment says:

"In a related situation, if the covering official's count of the players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave immediately. However, if the official's count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the subsitutiion has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more than 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave immediately as required (3-7-4; 9-6-4c)

This is not my commenting on the rule, I just quoted it. That sounds a lot like your situation. There is absolutely no reference to “3 seconds” constituting the term “immediately” in making a substitution.

I do not know what rulebook you are actually looking at, but I quoted the actual casebook.

Peace

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am looking at the casebook and your references (The 2008 National Federation Football Casebook). There is not one comment about "3 seconds" in this book under those references.

And under reference 3.7.1 Situation B, Comment says:

"In a related situation, if the covering official's count of the players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave immediately. However, if the official's count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the subsitutiion has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more than 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave immediately as required (3-7-4; 9-6-4c)

This is not my commenting on the rule, I just quoted it. That sounds a lot like your situation. There is absolutely no reference to “3 seconds” constituting the term “immediately” in making a substitution.

I do not know what rulebook you are actually looking at, but I quoted the actual casebook.

Peace

Thank you for that. I didn't see that in the 08 book. My quotation is from a few years ago I have it on the computer. Does 3 seconds still define immediately? they defined it and never undefined it right?

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Thank you for that. I didn't see that in the 08 book. My quotation is from a few years ago I have it on the computer. Does 3 seconds still define immediately? they defined it and never undefined it right?

Is undefining something akin to 'reestablishing' yourself in bounds in basketball (and since some people have some basic rules issues today, there is no such thing in football).

I'm sure they are lots of phrases, rules, etc. in old rulebooks that have not been 'undefined' yet they are definitely not still in existence.

[waltjp]

Good Grief.

[FTVMartin]

This really is kind of simple. It all boils down to when the official discovered 12. before the snap, kill and get the 5 yarder. after the snap, 15 for IP.

BTW - the OP said nothing about the player trying to leave the field. Coach - If you don't want to take the chance of getting a 15 yarder, call timeout. If you don't, you are leaving it up to us as to when we discover 12 guys on the field. As has been pointed out, sometimes we just don't get it quick enough but it's not our fault. You had too many guys on the field. We just call it.