substitution vs participation

[hawkishowl20]

I would also like to see some of these rules if they are different then the ones I posted. While understandably confusing due to both containing “when 12 or men are on the field” the deciding factor seems to be when the player enters the field, and the player substituted’s reaction. Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

[JRutledge]

My crew philosophy is to try to shut it down if there is clearly a substitution infraction or 12 people on the field. If that cannot happen the rules are in place to have a live ball substitution foul. I do not feel this is only the officials fault because many teams bring a lot of people on and off the field, especially on the defensive side of the ball; it can be hard to determine who is on the field and who should be off the field.

Peace

[HLin NC]

Agree with Rut, our philosophy is to try and shut it down and give the 5 instead of the 15. Its not always possible, you get hung up in mid-count, have to recount, snap gets off, then its too bad, so sad- 15 if he doesn't get off the field, 5 LBF if he does eventually find his sideline.

[Patton]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

Spoken like a true coach who could not make a simple substitution. Blame it on the official. As much as we try to catch these infractions before the snap, sometimes we don't. Sometimes our count is late for several factors such as, moving the chains, explaining something to a coach, etc. This should have been handled better by both of you, but let's not forget the initial cause...your failure to make a proper substitution.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by Patton

Spoken like a true coach who could not make a simple substitution. Blame it on the official. As much as we try to catch these infractions before the snap, sometimes we don't. Sometimes our count is late for several factors such as, moving the chains, explaining something to a coach, etc. This should have been handled better by both of you, but let's not forget the initial cause...your failure to make a proper substitution.

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

So if you're an official as well, why did you treat the fraternity with disrespect?

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So if you're an official as well, why did you treat the fraternity with disrespect?

When? maybe if you picture me screaming and throwing things I was disrespectful. However, I was not doing so. I can ask for clarification or an explanation. I can state rules. I was given no explanation and told to check a rule book before opening my mouth (screaming and pointing). I also have the advantage of having parents and coaches that have witnessed every game I’ve coached. They were appalled by this big bad ref attacking this honest coach with a legitimate concern. I typically address any official as sir or sirs and give any benefit of the doubt to them. My team never whines or complains about any call, they tell captains and/or coaches about them. This in my experience are rare traits.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I also have the advantage of having parents and coaches that have witnessed every game I’ve coached. They were appalled by this big bad ref attacking this honest coach with a legitimate concern. I typically address any official as sir or sirs and give any benefit of the doubt to them. My team never whines or complains about any call, they tell captains and/or coaches about them. This in my experience are rare traits.

It is not always what you say, but how you say it. I was not there, but many times coaches claim they are asking a "legitimate question" they are doing it in a way that is not appropriate. And if you cannot handle that, than you need to stop coaching. Also if you knew much about officiating, you would realize that it is not our job or obligation to answer your questions. If we do answer a question, that is done to be courteous. It is not our obligations when we have other game responsibilities. I was not there and I am sure you think you did nothing wrong, but I bet if we asked the officials or other individuals on the crew they might have a different take.

Peace

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is not always what you say, but how you say it. I was not there, but many times coaches claim they are asking a "legitimate question" they are doing it in a way that is not appropriate. And if you cannot handle that, than you need to stop coaching. Also if you knew much about officiating, you would realize that it is not our job or obligation to answer your questions. If we do answer a question, that is done to be courteous. It is not our obligations when we have other game responsibilities. I was not there and I am sure you think you did nothing wrong, but I bet if we asked the officials or other individuals on the crew they might have a different take.

Peace

I agree with your post. My only comment would be Officials have some obligation to communicate with coaches. It goes to the birth of football (when there were no “officials”) First captains then coaches then “officials” refereed the game. Everyone is in it together. Having been all three the attitudes I’m seeing here are scary and contrary to the spirit of the game.

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

When? maybe if you picture me screaming and throwing things I was disrespectful. However, I was not doing so. I can ask for clarification or an explanation. I can state rules. I was given no explanation and told to check a rule book before opening my mouth (screaming and pointing). I also have the advantage of having parents and coaches that have witnessed every game I’ve coached. They were appalled by this big bad ref attacking this honest coach with a legitimate concern. I typically address any official as sir or sirs and give any benefit of the doubt to them. My team never whines or complains about any call, they tell captains and/or coaches about them. This in my experience are rare traits.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I would consider calling someone an 'idiot' disrespectful.

Plus, it seems to me, that your first post was pretty much a whine. Just how I read it. We have all made mistakes on the field, missed calls, etc., but I think our reaction was pretty justified considering how this all started, and your refusal to accept the truth.

[Patton]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

Is that what you were doing when you initially refered to him as an "idiot"? You were the one that was incorrect on the rule, not him.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by Patton

Is that what you were doing when you initially refered to him as an "idiot"? You were the one that was incorrect on the rule, not him.

That was a thought and observation. I didn’t call him an idiot. It also is a recap of what happened. A thought popping into my head during an exchange in which he was acting idiotic. I would like to see some evidence of me being incorrect on the rule outside of “12 men on the field” because that obviously is the justification of misapplying participation. Perhaps look at the other 3 sentences each in both rules rather than ignore them.

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

I’m now picking up on this guy being an idiot.

Unless Bill Clinton is proofreading for you, I would say that you called him an idiot.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by PSU213

Unless Bill Clinton is proofreading for you, I would say that you called him an idiot.

I like you creativeness and Clinton refference but notice my use of quotes? That's what was said. The naration is naration.

[trocared]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

Coach...there are some crews who have the philisophy that a defender can leave the field of play before the play begins, therefore will not blow it dead w/more than 11.
Offense cannot break w/<11, or line up <11 bc. it would put defense at a great disadvantage.
next time, as other posts have mentioned, count to ten, and if that doesn't work, count to twenty or thirty, whatever it takes before you explode at an official, it will be well worth it!
cheers,
tro