substitution vs participation

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Forksref

If we count 12, then if they are not making any attempt to have one leave, we will throw the flag just prior to the snap. I tell the coach, we just saved you 10 yards. (5 yd IS vs. 15 yd IP). I consider it doing a favor for the team.

If we fail to do that for whatever reason, it will be a 15 yarder.

In any case, it is really the fault of the coach for not being organized enough to have the right number of kids out there. This seems to happen repeatly with some teams and not at all with others.

And under the principle that you will always make someone unhappy, we had a coach complain last year when we only penalized his the opponent for 5 yards. He argued that we should have let the play go and penalize them for 15, and by not doing so we cheated his team out of 10 yards.

[dumbref]

I agree – the rule was applied correctly under the circumstances. As for the behavior of the referee, the dad and the coach – it was absolutely deplorable by all. We are the adults and should set the example for the kids. What message did you send to your players?

Whether the call is correct or just wrong – there is a decorum that should be followed and a certain amount of respect that should be shown by all parties. The kids will learn a lot about conflict resolution from you coach. Are you proud of what you are teaching?

I’m not excusing the official from this either – shame on both of you! As for the dad - put him in the stands where he belongs.

[hawkishowl20]

How could the rule possibly be applied correctly under the circumstances? The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul. That is either malicious or ignorant, both being incorrect.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

How could the rule possibly be applied correctly under the circumstances? The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul. That is either malicious or ignorant, both being incorrect.

In your description, the defensive team had 12 players participating during the down. Nowhere in your play is the replaced player trying to leave the field.

Techincally speaking, that's how.

[hawkishowl20]

I would also like to see some of these rules if they are different then the ones I posted. While understandably confusing due to both containing “when 12 or men are on the field” the deciding factor seems to be when the player enters the field, and the player substituted’s reaction. Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

[JRutledge]

My crew philosophy is to try to shut it down if there is clearly a substitution infraction or 12 people on the field. If that cannot happen the rules are in place to have a live ball substitution foul. I do not feel this is only the officials fault because many teams bring a lot of people on and off the field, especially on the defensive side of the ball; it can be hard to determine who is on the field and who should be off the field.

Peace

[HLin NC]

Agree with Rut, our philosophy is to try and shut it down and give the 5 instead of the 15. Its not always possible, you get hung up in mid-count, have to recount, snap gets off, then its too bad, so sad- 15 if he doesn't get off the field, 5 LBF if he does eventually find his sideline.

[Patton]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

Spoken like a true coach who could not make a simple substitution. Blame it on the official. As much as we try to catch these infractions before the snap, sometimes we don't. Sometimes our count is late for several factors such as, moving the chains, explaining something to a coach, etc. This should have been handled better by both of you, but let's not forget the initial cause...your failure to make a proper substitution.

[hawkishowl20]

Originally Posted by Patton

Spoken like a true coach who could not make a simple substitution. Blame it on the official. As much as we try to catch these infractions before the snap, sometimes we don't. Sometimes our count is late for several factors such as, moving the chains, explaining something to a coach, etc. This should have been handled better by both of you, but let's not forget the initial cause...your failure to make a proper substitution.

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

So if you're an official as well, why did you treat the fraternity with disrespect?

[Patton]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

Is that what you were doing when you initially refered to him as an "idiot"? You were the one that was incorrect on the rule, not him.

[trocared]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

Coach...there are some crews who have the philisophy that a defender can leave the field of play before the play begins, therefore will not blow it dead w/more than 11.
Offense cannot break w/<11, or line up <11 bc. it would put defense at a great disadvantage.
next time, as other posts have mentioned, count to ten, and if that doesn't work, count to twenty or thirty, whatever it takes before you explode at an official, it will be well worth it!
cheers,
tro

[LeRoy]

Originally Posted by hawkishowl20

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

I just have one question. If you are an official, and this problem happens in your game are you going to call it Illegal substitution?

[mikesears]

I wonder if maybe the officials were using some NCAA conferences' philosophy of not calling a foul on the defense until after the snap beause the defense can call a timeout to correct the foul. If so, the officials were incorrect to do so. From the description (and we only got one side of the story here), it sounds like nobody involved handled this very well.

[wisref2]

I was the first to respond to this question and it was a pretty simple answer, can't believe it's led to such a discussion. Maybe this will be the last, who knows.

Coach - the refs got it right whether you like it or not. Live with it. (blow the ready for play and let's get on with the game)